AES and GE!

[ASTROMODAT]

FYI, there have been some recent discussions here regarding AES vs. DES-OFB, especially in terms of which approach public safety and the Fed folks will take in the near future.

I find it interesting that the new, state-of-the-art GE (M/ACom) APCO 25 radios, the so-called "OpenSky" series (such as their new M803 mobile), will ONLY include AES, if optioned for P25 encryption. DES-OFB is NOT supported in GE's new line of P25 IMBE mobiles and portables. And, these are GE's Top of the Line/High Tier radios for public safety and the Feds.

GE's old P25 radios, such as the "Orion" series, included DES-OFB as an option, but they were too old to support AES. Orion boat anchors are scheduled to be discontinued this year, leaving OpenSky as their only top tier radio line. In fact, they have a number of features that are much more sophisticated than Motorola's ASTRO Spectra.

Looks like GE is convinced that DES-OFB is dead. Motorola is also following the Fed mandate, like GE, to implement AES. Of course, I suppose GE AND Motorola could BOTH be wrong, but...

Larry

P.S. Sorry to bring up GE on this board, but I thought it was relevant to the discussion on AES vs. DES-OFB.

[wavetar]

I'm not sure why you keep harping on the point. Of course the 256-bit AES will be the ongoing new standard as opposed to the 56-bit DES. Yes, the 3-letter agencies will be the first to embrace it, and use your tax dollars to implement it across the board. Yes, the new KVL will be required to keyload AES, as the older ones can only handle 56-bits. That doesn't change the fact there's hundreds of thousands of encryption capable radios currently in use that cannot support AES, nor can their systems. Motorola at least sees that fact & all their current models support DES, as well as some with AES. GE is being a little blind to that fact. They would stand to sell a lot more radios if they enabled dual protocol support. Very few agencies besides the above mentioned will replace their entire fleet of not even 5-year old Astro radios simply to move to AES, when they have very little reason to. They would be much more likley to have a few AES capable units around for liason purposes, and continue to utilize the rest of their "ancient" DES fleet for internal comms. I have never heard of a DES encrypted comms system being compromised by anybody, other than under controlled testing to see how long it would take...with Cray supercomputers mind you. It'll remain good enough for 99.9% of the users out there. Jezzus, there's still some law enforcement agencies out there in the clear, or using simple voice inversion. We're not gonna see a flood of dirt cheap, nearly new, DES capable Astro radios on Ebay anytime soon. If you think so, I'll go get a stopwatch, you can start holding your breath.

[mancow]

Seems he's just giving a heads up for those that it might affect. He mentioned in earlier posts that having the state of the art is a requirement for competing for federal contracts.

I agree though, that it seems a waste of money from a govt. stand point. If they intended on using 256 bit as a near future standard, why did they build the OFB to begin with? Keeping up with all this has got to be maddening for those that are effected by it.

mancow

[apco25]

Guys, I know its hard with all the names changes, but GE, Ericsson or Comnet have nothing to do with the current line off radios from MA/COM other than the radios that were developed by those earlier incarnations.

Stick with MA/COM otherwise its too confusing!

[xmo]

Larry,

Not that it has anything to do with encryption, but I thought I ought to advise you that someone has given you bum information about the MA/COM products.

First you say "...the new, state-of-the-art GE (M/ACom) APCO 25 radios, the so-called "OpenSky" series..."

Then you say: "...GE's old P25 radios, such as the "Orion" series..."

None of these products are P25 or APCO 25 compatible on their primary systems. Open Sky radios may include conventional P25 CAI for interoperability but the Open Sky system is proprietary.

Here is some info from their web site:

"High quality OpenSky® voice communication is digitally encoded using Advanced MultiBand Excitation (AMBE). "

Also, the old GE EDACS is now being sold with what is called "ProVoice" which does use the IMBE vocoder but uses 9600 BPS 2 level on the channel, not C4FM CAI.

Just so nobody gets the idea they are going to monitor one of these systems with a P25 scanner.

[ASTROMODAT]

The OpenSky radios are some of the most advanced 2-Way radios in existence. They can easily be software configured to handle the entire suite of APCO25 protocols, no problem. A Uniden scanner with a digital card would have no problem monitoring the M803, if the agency using it chooses to configure their M803s with P25 protocols. Or, they can operate with GE's proprietary protocols, too. In the latter case, then the Uniden will not be able to monitor (until such time that the GE protocol becomes available).

However, even having all of this software horespower for nearly unlimited protocol flexibilities, notice they don't even bother with DES-OFB. That is because it's not worth it since the US Gov't is MANDATING AES in the next 2 years for the Feds. I think we will see a waterfall of change in this regards once the Big Boys switch in ernest. State and Local Agencies will also have to convert if they expect to be able to be compatable with these Fed Agencies.

Don't get me wrong---I truly wish this was not the case, as it is costing me an arm and a leg, which I'd much prefer to be putting into buying new helicopters, not AES firmware and equipment!

My main issue is that knowing what is coming (like a speeding freight train) can be pretty important so one buys the right infrastructure. For instance, if you need to be compatable with the Feds now, and into the future, one would be a fool to not buy the multi-algorythm UCM option that supports AES (as well as the current DES-OFB), since it costs only $200 more at the get go, and will save $749 later! That's my point.

Anyways, I have a letter coming from Motorola which lays out the mandatory changeover requirements for the Fed Agencies to go to AES and I'm just pointing out that this is a major development that will have broad changes in the marketplace as the vendors respond. It will be interesting to see what the real deal is as to the details of the dates and the consequences of not switching.

Larry

[/\/\y 2 cents]

What if I told you that in a few months I plan to change the world by introducing a product that eliminate protocols for good, and connect systems of any band, or proprietary formant regardless, in literally seconds ? Do you think I would be as influential as the guy who creates a vaccination for AIDS, or even Marconi or Edison? Because that is what I am in the process of experimenting with, and let me tell you, things are looking pretty damn good from over here in my college dorm room. If this thing ever takes off, all of you bat labber's will be major paid because im taking you guys to the top with me.......you guys have been (and continue to be) my eyes and ears when it comes to technical advisement. Anybody who wishes to help conduct private research and testing of this product, PM me.