the military and FRS

bud_mot · Post by **bud_mot** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:36 pm

http://www.f-r-s.org/e-news/F-R-S.org,n ... 626-01.htm

Has this already been discussed here?

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 1:13 am

I don't get it, how can an FRS be better than an PRC-127? Answer me that. I've heard this over and over again so there must be something to it. We've used the king line for years with no problems. It seems that 3 watts would beat 500mw every time.

I'm confused.

mancow

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:25 am

Operator error? I dunno, seems weird to me.

Tom in D.C. · Post by **Tom in D.C.** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:01 am

1. This subject HAS been extensively discussed previously on this Board.

2. By definition, these are "squad" radios, which means that they are intended for use when about ten people are relatively close together, which is how a squad usually operates. If it was a "company" radio it might be defined or built differently. The first inquiries for radios to meet these, however poorly defined, needs first appeared in CBD more than six years ago.

3. I go with the "operator error" theory for most or all of the problems encountered.

4. The Icom military small radios operate, I believe it was reported here, on about 380 mHz.

5. I have also read somewhere that the DOD is acutely aware of the problems people have in the field with the "throwaway" radios.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:49 am

Maybe they are planning to drive the enemy nuts with the roger-beeps?

jim · Post by **jim** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 8:49 am

I think that somebody that actually set up a webpage for FRS radios has got to be a crack baby. And to talk these radios up like they are superior to anyhting the military issues? They might talk 2 miles, but aren't anywhere near as rugged as the "inferior" military radios. And for the MIL-SPEC ratings???? I just hope they use the cute little "turkey" roger beeps! You know that some of these soldiers that are radio illiterate WILL discuss something secure on these radios just because the box reads "with 46 secure codes" on it without realizing what they're doing.

These toys have no place in the military, let alone public safety as seen many times.

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 9:12 am

yep it is strange... never known the military to skimp on communications gear until now...

007 · Post by **007** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:06 pm

Damn, that article is scary...ditch the PRC for a "secure" FRS radio from the PX?

What the hell is the world coming to?

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:19 pm

Why are the PX's carrying these in operational areas in the first place?

dfc2 · Post by **dfc2** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:18 pm

Just a little info. I picked up about 30 of the Icom F3S radios DOD surplus about 6 months ago. They are VHF, most are the lower split ( with 149.xxx freq's, a few are the High split, but are also programmed with the same freq's. I got 2 batches ( from different DRMO's ) all would talk to each other, so they must be all programmed the same. I have seen the BK radios, I would think that a mistake on programming ( Making 149.550, into 149.500 ) would hurt the radios range. I do not know what power the BK's use, but the Icom are 5W. I personally would prefer the front progamability, but to tell the truth, most of the guys I worked with are lost when it comes to something like that, so you are better off with set freq's for most troops.

Just my $0.02

DFC2

4. The Icom military small radios operate, I believe it was reported here, on about 380 mHz.

BrienD · Post by **BrienD** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:17 pm

I remember reading a clarification in one of my radio magazines that said the government specified that the squad radio had to be a maxim power of 500mw. They wear concerned that with a limited number of channels they did not want the squads talking over each other. Also they did not want the other side hearing what is going on.

nitornemo · Post by **nitornemo** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 11:09 pm

Okay...My 52 cents...

1) Consider the source...FRS.ORG????? Please!

2) The only person REALLY quoted about our soldiers using these
is a SPEC.....arhm, E3 rank?

3) I would have to agree that the radios do make it into the field the
same way that cell phones were used in DesertStorm, but our soldiers
are not morons they know that in times of war every comm net is
being listened to. No one would opt to use something that you can get
thru a catalog. With the Internet the other side can buy them too!

4) I LOVE the statement that the PRC (pricks) are good for X number of
thousand yards. MAYBE thru solid concrete.

our snipers shoot
further than that quote on a daily basis!

5) Consider the Military mindset and the sizes of the units;
5-10men per squad = maybe 5-10 handheld radios and maybe a pac
worn radio(maybe).
4-5 squads to a platoon, already with the above radios and radios in
Hummers/whatever (these being comm to the squads and back to
command)
4-6 platoons to a company. again all the radios above AND companies
have at the least a SQUAD of comm soldiers (or More) with comm
trucks (they setup everything from comm between its own company
, to other companies, field command, 2xx.xxxxMHz/XGHz satalite
comms and computer networks, Audio-Video, cell sites, etc.
ALL IN THE FIELD!).
I'll stop there but can go to the next step"S".

To stand up and claim that FRS radios out perform any commerical radio
in the field or during battle is the biggest

-ing crock of

I have ever heard!

okay....I ranted....

For Sale...1 SOAP BOX only used once, Free for the taking

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:58 am

nitornemo wrote:Okay...My 52 cents...

1) Consider the source...FRS.ORG????? Please!]

"This article was published by the European Stars & Stripes (Military Newspaper)
on Wednesday, June 26, 2002. Please refer to: http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?sec ... chive=true

commtek · Post by **commtek** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:22 am

ROTFLMAO

Tom in D.C. · Post by **Tom in D.C.** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:49 am

If a person is an E3 he or she is a PFC.
If a person is an E4 he or she is either a Specialist 4th class or a corporal.

Just for the record, and for all the people who don't have military experience who might be misled.

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:31 pm

I don't doubt it. In September of 2000 in a joint exercise between my MP unit and another local MP detachment (one of the very ones that went to Bosnia) We (our unit ) acted as enemy agitators to test the response and opertation of the MP's to civil unrest. The excersise was a riot, we had loads of fun, but brought up a few rather large deficencies (which I am not going to list for security reasons) one I am going to list is the use by the MP's and (undercover) agents within the crowd using FRS radios. That made for some interesting fun, by listening to the MP's as they made their tactics known on the frequency, we (the agitators) were able to capture the commanding officer of the unit, and also lay seige to them by setting up on a roof top near the skirmish. BTW we used water ballons as ammo, and soaked the entire unit. I hope that this unit learned the lesson of not using civilian radios in a combat evironment. On another note, I believe the PRC-127 is not authorized for use anymore, I could be wrong, but I ahvn't seen any in the armories lately. Thats probably why you are seeing so many of them at auctions. I just hope that this isn't another case of the Government cheapening out, at the expense of our soldiers.

2wayfreq · Post by **2wayfreq** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:40 pm

Hmm,

In desert storm, the officers carried around VHF securenet saber 1 radios on 154.600. It was funny that they never bothered with the encryption mode. I had brought an AOR-1000 over there and could listen to the UHF Saber 411Mhz comms and the VHF in the clear. I know they went to freq hopping SINGARS and i'm not sure what they have for handhelds now.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:48 pm

RADIOMAN2002 wrote:I don't doubt it. In September of 2000 in a joint exercise between my MP unit and another local MP detachment (one of the very ones that went to Bosnia) We (our unit ) acted as enemy agitators to test the response and opertation of the MP's to civil unrest. The excersise was a riot, we had loads of fun, but brought up a few rather large deficencies (which I am not going to list for security reasons) one I am going to list is the use by the MP's and (undercover) agents within the crowd using FRS radios. That made for some interesting fun, by listening to the MP's as they made their tactics known on the frequency, we (the agitators) were able to capture the commanding officer of the unit, and also lay seige to them by setting up on a roof top near the skirmish. BTW we used water ballons as ammo, and soaked the entire unit. I hope that this unit learned the lesson of not using civilian radios in a combat evironment. On another note, I believe the PRC-127 is not authorized for use anymore, I could be wrong, but I ahvn't seen any in the armories lately. Thats probably why you are seeing so many of them at auctions. I just hope that this isn't another case of the Government cheapening out, at the expense of our soldiers.

Sound more like poor training then radio problems. Say they were using the new "intercoms" (Icom F3S's with headsets and AA packs), what they say is just as much in the clear only in VHF and with more power (so it can be heard at a longer distants). what they say on the radio is really what would matter.

Not that I'm saying that FRS radios are what is best, just that you have to apply the same to "real radios".

Cam

techie · Post by **techie** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:48 pm

For those of us with no experience with green radios, could someone summarize what the different PRC models are, especially the ones that are commercial off the shelf types?

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 8:08 pm

2 mile range eh? Yeah maybe from like an airplane flying at 10,000ft they get 2 miles...

I am about to trade my allegience in for Mother England's because of the sole fact that our Military's commucations foundation is a couple of el cheapo Motorola Talkabouts (which you can get a pair of "5 mile range" talkabouts for $5 after rebate). Wait - maybe our big brother spending fiends have finally got rid of the $7000 screwdrivers and did some discount shopping at the radio-shack closeout counter...

Hmm...

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:23 pm

the PRC-127 is a pretty much standard bendix/king front panel programmable portable for field use.

The radios on bases are usually typical land mobile stuff except in the funky low split VHF or UHF fed bands.

natedog224 · Post by **natedog224** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 11:11 pm

From the small amount I took out of that article it seems that they are implying the soldiers are buying them out of pocket to help themselves communicate easier. It also would seem that the soldiers' mentioned job duties are not so important to require encryption.

Im no expert so if I am wrong whoopidy doo....

The military wouldnt TX anything truely important without encrypting the hell out of it first.

k4wtf · Post by **k4wtf** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:00 am

That's what I took out of it as well Nate. And "the military" might not do stupid things but, you would be amazed what some officers will do. It's almost as if they lose 1/2 of their common sense the moment they are commissioned - and few ever recover.

John

willbartlett · Post by **willbartlett** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:40 pm

What I have heard from some who were "over there" recently, was that the frs thing came down to one major issue.

If you kill your PRC127 or other $500 super speciallized battery, and the supply chain is spotty at best, where do you get more? A doubleA battery, easy to carry around in bulk, you could probably carry a weeks worth of batteries for a frs in the space of that prc-127 battery.

Also, low power uhf is probably far preferrable at the squad level, less RF to travel. If the enemy can hear you with those low power toys, it's probably too late for them anyway.

Anyone with sensitive info ought to be running type 1 comsec anyway.

Will

kmoose · Post by **kmoose** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:30 am

Here's another facet of it: If it is illegal to use FRS for business use, then what could possibly make it ok to use it to conduct military operations? Oh wait..........they are operating under the Bosnian regulations, aren't they? Next thing you know, all the guys running around Ft. Irwin, Ca. will have one of the things.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:55 am

kmoose wrote: If it is illegal to use FRS for business use...

It's not.

Cam

N9LLO · Post by **N9LLO** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:16 am

Military radio use in not regulated by the FCC

Chris

fireradio · Post by **fireradio** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:32 pm

I don't mean to get off topic, just wondering if anyone has played with a PRC-127 before. I'm kinda thinking about picking one up. They're obviously very durable, and the field programmability is a plus. Only downside is they don't go far past 160 (there are some 166.xxx freqs I'd like to use, but you can't have it all!)

Heterodyne · Post by **Heterodyne** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:11 pm

Only those who know the code can speak to each other.

Sounds like Radio Shack's a Military contractor now.....

That whole f-r-s.org site reeks of "wanna-be".

Your neighbors may be using F-R-S radio while training as part of a Community Emergency Response Teams Program.

They've never heard of ARES?

Better call SpringShield!

natedog224 · Post by **natedog224** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:15 pm

Somewhere in Afghanistan.....................

"Osama! Osama! we have intercepted the american Infadel on channel 12 they are coming hurry hurry you must leave now"...............

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:10 pm

the MIL "FRS" type radios are on a new fed allocation at 380-400 Mhz and not on the public frequencies.

Otherwise its the same type of crappy radio.

bud_mot · Post by **bud_mot** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:12 pm

Well, it's not a lot of info but it does give some indication of the future:

http://www.af.mil/stories/story.asp?storyID=123006132

nitornemo · Post by **nitornemo** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:02 am

apco25 wrote:the MIL "FRS" type radios are on a new fed allocation at 380-400 Mhz and not on the public frequencies.

Didn't it say only the Marines were going below 400MHz?
Good idea but, wouldn't it be even better to "outside" the typical scanner freq's?
At least so when the Enemy is trying to listen in to their comms (on a scanner he (or she) bought when they were here going to HARVARD on a visa and getting a grant from OUR tax dolars)
it'll be outside the band limits.

apco25 wrote: Otherwise its the same type of crappy radio.

Disposable world we're living in...

I wonder which recycle symbol/value they'll put on the case of these for when they're thrown away

RADIOMAN2002 · Post by **RADIOMAN2002** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:23 am

The 127 uses a special battery pack that uses AA batteries. So I doubt that it is the only reason why the troops are buying their own, more likely they don't have anything. Sounds the sames as when I was in. BTW most ground troops frquencies are ALL below 400mhz. When I was in the Air Force, the Army and Marines both used low band FM(30-50). We had to have a (special ) radio so we could talk to them, everything else we had was VHF 136 MHZ, VHF-AM air, 300-400MHZ AM air to ground, and microwave for short hops to the remote command posts. Now most command and control frequencies are in the 27-88 have some neat in band repeaters using the SINGARS radios using a different hopping sceme for input and output.

olderookie · Post by **olderookie** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:17 am

ok to sum up this entire post they use the frs radios because they need them. the militarty has all kinds of cool and wonderous equipment and never is it in the hands of the troops that need them. in my time in we had gps and secure radios but they were in the commanders vehicles not the poor slob who was out in the middle of nowhere it was as it is in the civilian world a status symbol for the commanders hummvee to have all the best stuff.

I too when overseas had the frs radios in central america. I used the prc 127, I was one of the few that could program them. and I used the sabers too. but it was rare if you had a misson that you needed comms for that you got more than a manpack radio. and those hunks of junk were lucky to go over a mile or 2.

and try to find anything other than AA batteries and you are SOL. it took like 8 aa's to run a PRC127 for a mere couple of hours. so a low power radio that all of us could have that did not cost us a lot with a bunch of channels that we could carry a lot of batteries for? it really is the best solution to a problem that the army refused to identify. and go to supply and try to order a radio that is not on your MTOE not gunna happen! we found a loop hole and did order a bunch of PRC127's as parts and that was quickly changed by the supply system.

as to secure comms it rareley happened in any form due to lack of good trainning. I trained myself to go secure and that was hard to due without constant upkeep in training. we lost or 127 due to one getting capured in JRTC one year training only but it did show the command that we had comms problems. BTW PRC127 is not a secure radio at all.

so to answer all of the questions why ? because the need is there and this is all the troops can get there hands on. as to leagality when you are the ruling force in an area you make the rules.

I am greatful to see that the commands are letting the troops fix internal problems and not creating more by allowing the little radios to be used.

been there done that

kens · Post by **kens** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:37 pm

I agree with the previous post. Although our military has wonderful new radios, they are almost non existant in nat. guard and reserve units. When they do have any radios at all they are frequently poorly serviced or completely worn out from rough use under field conditions. Those soldiers are making do with what is available.
I was once the hero of a training op when I showed up with a half dozen old GE PE radios that were being trashed by the local pd. The pa's were shot so they output less than a watt on uhf but they were the only radios available. GI resourcefullness is how we win battles.

radioconsult · Post by **radioconsult** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:37 pm

Today (Tuesday 12/9) on ABC Nightly New during one of the war stories out of Iraq a US soldier was shown taking his mil FRS off his webbing and talking on it. Sure looked like an FRS including the jazzy color scheme.
RC

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:13 pm

Like this...

?
Cam

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:18 pm

Stop dicking around and buy some:

http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/v ... nId=300948

thehead7 · Post by **thehead7** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:08 pm

I was still in when the Itrasquad radio hit the Fleet Marine Force. The idea was to have one for every marine in the company, but fortunately we only had 50 of them for a 184 man rifle company.

I remember my police sergeant (kind of a logistics guy, not usually with the rank of sergeant) cussing as he painted little numbers on all of the radios, little pouches, and battery covers...

I was surprised that in two years of having to use those POS's that only about three of them got destroyed, and two got lost. Of course, one of the moron's who lost one tried to replace it with a regular Icom FRS radio. He was annoyed to find out that he'd spent $75 or so on nothing...

Anyhow, I remember the first field op that I had to issue them. Every team leader, squad leader, platoon sergeant, and platoon commander had one. We were allowed to use one channel for the entire company, and I had to explain to every freaking zero (a term for officer) in the company why we couldn't just all use different privacy codes... Then, I had the XO think I was full of it and tell everyone to use different codes... That lasted about four hours before the CO figured out that I was right after all. The sad thing is, I had to explain the concept to the comm shop, and they didn't believe me either. I wasn't an actual school trained radio operator, which, in all actuality, meant that I might actually know something about radio... I digress...

Well, the skipper and I were standing on a hill watching a patrol of our Marines going by. I remembered that before we got these stinking radios, we had these things called hand and arm signals. Instead, now, we had team leaders that were twenty yards from each other getting on their little radio to say such things as "Security Halt", "more dispersion", et cetera, with all the little roger beeps to go with it. You could hear those roger beeps further than the radio could actually reliably transmit...

In about a week I went from issuing almost fifty of those filthy little things to issuing about twenty. As time progressed, they were used mainly for administrative purposes only, issued to platoon commanders, platoon sergeants, and company headquarters.

What it comes down to is this. For the most part, members of a squad don't need to be able to talk to each other on the radio. If a squad is spread that far apart, the squad leader needs to find a different line of work. The Marine Corps survived for 225+ years without little squad radios, and I think it can go on without them... I think the idea of issuing a palm pilot to all Marines who graduate bootcamp is better (yeah, a bunch of jarheads with PDAs... Wouldn't that be great?)

If the Marine Corps wanted to do something worthwhile, they would issue commercial GPS units to team leaders and above. The current model GPS is an A/N PNS-11, which is a five channel receiver and it does two things that a Garmin won't.

1: It will interface with various peices of comsec equipment and load the time base for the spread spectrum portion.

2: It can be loaded with crypto so that it's accuracy is not degraded when the DOD injects errors into the GPS system, which hasn't happened for a really long time to my knowlege.

Of course, the garmin GPS is a lot easier to use, cheaper than a PSN 11, more reliable, faster, smaller, and lighter. Go figure...

As far as FRS radios outperforming other military radios: most likely operator error. There were cases when A/N PRC-119 radios would not perform well if they were not properly configured. If the time was not set within about four seconds of each other, they would work. If the time was different by even a second, there was a measurable decrease in performance. I worked with both the 119B and 119F radios. The 119B was a lot bigger and heavier than the newer 119F radios, and I seam to think that it put out more power. It was also a lot more durable. I was the only one in the company who had a choice of which radio to carry, and I wouldn't even let the 119F out of the gear locker.

I never saw a PRC 127 in the marine corps, but we did have sabers. I never once saw a saber used in secure mode, as the battalion did not have an operational KVL. In most cases the sabers had batteries in poor condition, and the comm shop didn't understand the concept. I wish I had a couple, though, because they were all the submersible model... They were all on UHF and worked okay when they worked.

The bottome line, though: You don't need that many radios to run a company and/or fight a war.

Okay, I've rambled on long enough.

Stay motivated,
Head

InfernoMDM · Post by **InfernoMDM** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:12 pm

Well I tell you what I am thourghly disapointed I didnt bring my FRS. I have used FRS radios for years in Paintball, however I never knew that the military would issue them out.

The Air Force is currently using XTS 3000 with encryption active. However every army guy walking around here has a FRS I believe. To tell you the truth its a little dishearting. I do believe however most of these are just used to chat between fence posts etc. Keep everyone awake on duty etc.

Forgive me if I hack this but most guys are carrying the BRTM BTRM something like that. I'll check what the ausies got here I believe its something like a micro or something remotely like that.

the military and FRS

the military and FRS

"FRS" and military usage...

Icom Squad Radios

E3?

I

Re: I

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