The Michigan Search Dog Association other wise know as MSDA is an all volunteer staffed non profit association that is currently forming. Our primary purpose is to provide trained FEMA Certified canine search teams to local, state and federal governmental agencies during times of disaster.
We are in need of individuals who have knowledge in obtaining FCC licensing for emergency service communications within the privet land mobile sector. In order for us to provide the highest level of first responder K9 response search services to the citizens of Michigan we are seeking approval for high power mobiles in the VHF band with mobile vehicle repeaters and low power handheld radios in UHF bands.
Currently MSDA is being formed and there is no monies available to cover the four to seven hundred dollar licensing coordination fees quoted to us. Any one who has experience in filling out FCC Licensing forms, is wiling to volunteer there expertise's in preparing the appropriate paperwork and/or would be willing to act as an liaison and over see the process is ask to contact the Michigan Search Dog Association.
Currently fewer than 150 FEMA Certified disaster search teams exist in the United States. Since the events of September 11th. 2001 the President of the United States along with the Homeland Security and Protect Act are currently calling for 300 teams nation wide. To the best of our research, there are currently no FEMA Certified disaster search teams within Michigan. Our goal is to bring together individuals who share our vision and anyone who can contribute. Please visit our web site or contact me for more information.
Sincerely Yours
Bradley J. Hazel - Founder
Michigan Search Dog Association
P.O. Box 15
Davison Michigan 48423
eFax: 561-423-3267
bradhazel@hotmail.com
http://www.MichiganSearchDogAssociation.org
FCC Licensing Help!
Moderator: Queue Moderator
You're asking for VHF mobiles and UHF portables.
This would mean your mobiles couldn't talk to the portables, and vice-versa.
If this is infact the route you choose to go, it might be a wise idea to either install UHF mobiles in all the vehicles...or... make a VHF-UHF cross-band repeater out of two maxtracs or such. You could make it portable, or inside a vehicle. I've seen several agencies do this and they like it quite well.
But as apco25 said, I'd look into getting a talkgroup on the statewide system, so you don't have to worry about licensing or coverage, etc...
-Mike
This would mean your mobiles couldn't talk to the portables, and vice-versa.
If this is infact the route you choose to go, it might be a wise idea to either install UHF mobiles in all the vehicles...or... make a VHF-UHF cross-band repeater out of two maxtracs or such. You could make it portable, or inside a vehicle. I've seen several agencies do this and they like it quite well.
But as apco25 said, I'd look into getting a talkgroup on the statewide system, so you don't have to worry about licensing or coverage, etc...
-Mike
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Tom in D.C.
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Statewide MSDA radio system...
Bradley:
To emphasize what was said above, IF you can get an authorization to use part of a statewide trunked 800 mHz system then all you have to do costwise is get the radios, which won't be inexpensive but at least you'll have statewide coverage. And you could also see if the state might provide you with radios; it's worth asking about. Any other kind of statewide system will incur an astronomical cost for your group. Using this type of system might also provide you with interoperability with local public safety agencies in the search area. I say might, because you'll always need permission to have your radios set up for different talk groups.
With a portable system setup, limited to the general search area, you'll be up to your ears in the radio business, which I'm sure is not what you want, but you'll be able to use radios that are much less expensive than the trunked units.
Paperwork-wise, you won't need coordination if you limit youself to itinerant radio channels and you'll save the coordination expense. The license expediting companies in Gettysburg and other places don't charge much for their advice and it's well worth it for the knowledge they bring to the process.
To emphasize what was said above, IF you can get an authorization to use part of a statewide trunked 800 mHz system then all you have to do costwise is get the radios, which won't be inexpensive but at least you'll have statewide coverage. And you could also see if the state might provide you with radios; it's worth asking about. Any other kind of statewide system will incur an astronomical cost for your group. Using this type of system might also provide you with interoperability with local public safety agencies in the search area. I say might, because you'll always need permission to have your radios set up for different talk groups.
With a portable system setup, limited to the general search area, you'll be up to your ears in the radio business, which I'm sure is not what you want, but you'll be able to use radios that are much less expensive than the trunked units.
Paperwork-wise, you won't need coordination if you limit youself to itinerant radio channels and you'll save the coordination expense. The license expediting companies in Gettysburg and other places don't charge much for their advice and it's well worth it for the knowledge they bring to the process.
Tom in D.C.
In 1920, the U.S. Post Office Department ruled
that children may not be sent by parcel post.
In 1920, the U.S. Post Office Department ruled
that children may not be sent by parcel post.
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/\/\y 2 cents
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I do believe he did say he wanted a crossband vehicular repeater, Yes I will help you with your forms, etc./ try to help. I have a another idea for your application than a crossband vehicular repeater though, and it will be infinetly easier to get licensed and ont the air. What kind of power are you talking about on the VHF Mobile side of thngs. PM me for more info and so I can get a little more info.
Steve
Steve
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apco25
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I do search & rescue full time so here are my thoughts:
A: Get on the MSP statewide digital trunked system if you can.
B: Get permission to use VHF statewide mutual aid channels
C: License a VHF conventional simplex frequency - high power for internal on scene comms. Also use for portables on the same freq and mobile extender.
D: Mobile extenders do work well when properly confiured.
E: Get a crossband repeater setup that works between your mobile extender frequency and your VHF simplex frequency so if need be you can operate the mobile repeater at a high central location instead of using the vehicles.
Also if you are a FEMA certified team your should be eligible to be licensed on federal freqs administered by NTIA which would be to your advantage.
Especially going the FEMA route make sure you have digital P-25 capable radios somewhere.
A: Get on the MSP statewide digital trunked system if you can.
B: Get permission to use VHF statewide mutual aid channels
C: License a VHF conventional simplex frequency - high power for internal on scene comms. Also use for portables on the same freq and mobile extender.
D: Mobile extenders do work well when properly confiured.
E: Get a crossband repeater setup that works between your mobile extender frequency and your VHF simplex frequency so if need be you can operate the mobile repeater at a high central location instead of using the vehicles.
Also if you are a FEMA certified team your should be eligible to be licensed on federal freqs administered by NTIA which would be to your advantage.
Especially going the FEMA route make sure you have digital P-25 capable radios somewhere.
"Some men just don't know their limitations"
Currently over 75% of Michigan (police, fire,ems) is using the VHF band. The implementation of APCO Project 25 compliant digital equipment has only been placed in service by the state police and two other counties. The county that MSDA is located in has not signed on the deal but has stated they will implement it with in the next five years. There is a lot of problems on that issue right now and there is a lot of talk with the powers to be of not even joining the program. I would agree that it would be a great idea to get on board with the 800 system, but give the rate of growth to the association finances and my ability to personally front the startup cost, the system will be outdated before the money arrives. Not to mention we would be with out our communications till such time. Currently VHF is the cheapest way to go that I've found right now.
My thought is to equip the vehicles with high power VHF mobiles (100 watt)on our own channel along with police, fire and ems mutual aid channels. This would allow for communicating with MSDA administration/dispatchers along with a car to car contact and communicating with an agency requesting our services. If that agency has a privet channel they may grant us use via a proposal in a mutual aid agreement we will be creating. We could than meet on a privet channel in place of a mutual aid channel, thus saving a step for the "customer" or requesting agency. In addition, each vehicle would be equipped with mobile vehicle repeaters in the UHF band. Each handler will be equipped with a portable for on scene, portable to car, and handler to handler communications.
It was mention to me via my Yahoo posy that FEMA teams operate within a portion of the UHF band reserved for government users. And as a non-profit we can not obtain a licensing on government frequencies and we would have to sign a MOU with FEMA.
That is my master plan. It is not set in stone and any suggestions or recommendations you can give is welcomed.
My thought is to equip the vehicles with high power VHF mobiles (100 watt)on our own channel along with police, fire and ems mutual aid channels. This would allow for communicating with MSDA administration/dispatchers along with a car to car contact and communicating with an agency requesting our services. If that agency has a privet channel they may grant us use via a proposal in a mutual aid agreement we will be creating. We could than meet on a privet channel in place of a mutual aid channel, thus saving a step for the "customer" or requesting agency. In addition, each vehicle would be equipped with mobile vehicle repeaters in the UHF band. Each handler will be equipped with a portable for on scene, portable to car, and handler to handler communications.
It was mention to me via my Yahoo posy that FEMA teams operate within a portion of the UHF band reserved for government users. And as a non-profit we can not obtain a licensing on government frequencies and we would have to sign a MOU with FEMA.
That is my master plan. It is not set in stone and any suggestions or recommendations you can give is welcomed.
With 25 yrs in SAR, 27 in Law Enforcement, experience as an instructor for FEMA, my suggestion is for now, save your money. You will need it. You will HAVE to be registered as an EMERGENCY SERVICE WORKER (Volunteer). Whoever is the registering agency in your jurisdiction (where you file your 501C(3) status I assume) should be able to allow you a COMMUNUCATIIONS AGGREEMENT on one of their licensed channels. That will get you started. I would not recommend using other than VHF. When teams such as yours are used as a National resource they nearly always use VHF simplex channels. If it is a FEMA "operation" they ususally issue UHF portables in the Federal subbands. Often radios that haven't been used in awhile, so you wind up using your own "tried and true" VHF.
Another "lead" is to obtain a COMM AGREEMENT with your state office of emergency management. (whatever it is called in Mich) It is much cheaper to get a start this way, then as you deploy keep track of what people have radiowise, and plan for radios in a couple of years, getting a license of your own if you find that you really need it.
Another "lead" is to obtain a COMM AGREEMENT with your state office of emergency management. (whatever it is called in Mich) It is much cheaper to get a start this way, then as you deploy keep track of what people have radiowise, and plan for radios in a couple of years, getting a license of your own if you find that you really need it.
Why not amateur? (repost)
(reposted from the other thread)
The local search dog teams here in Kanas have a large percentage of the people licenses as amateur operators - why is that NOT an option for you?
The cost of training your people, getting them their licenses, and then the equipment is BOUND to be much less than going PMR. Also, setup for emergency work would be a great deal easier for ham gear than for commercial gear.
The local search dog teams here in Kanas have a large percentage of the people licenses as amateur operators - why is that NOT an option for you?
The cost of training your people, getting them their licenses, and then the equipment is BOUND to be much less than going PMR. Also, setup for emergency work would be a great deal easier for ham gear than for commercial gear.
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
It looks like your off the a good start. I was going to tell you about the SARCOM board in yahoo, but I see you have found it.
As for using amateur radio as your primary from of radio, I would say don't do it. I have nothing againt HAM radio, but there are better was for a SAR team to go. HAM has it's place and there is no doubt that it can and has been useful in emergencies. There are many great team out there that use it.
That being said, you are forming/have formed a dog team, not a radio team. Your team will most likly need to talk to others, not on the team that are using PS radio. The people who join will most likly join to be handers, not HAMs.
I would try and get a VHF pair and forget the whole vehicle repeater thing, i really don't see that working well for you. Vehicle repeaters are low power and handhelds are low power, and if your not close to your vehicle all you have is a UHF handhand were most people will have a VHF handheld. If you get get your VHF pair, then get a repeater that you can move around. Now you have handheld VHF radios that can be use on their own as well as with other teams, you have a higher powered repeater that's not mounted in a vehicle that many or many not be near. Also you only have to get one pair, in one band.
As for radios, look at the Kenwood TK-270/280/290.
Cam
As for using amateur radio as your primary from of radio, I would say don't do it. I have nothing againt HAM radio, but there are better was for a SAR team to go. HAM has it's place and there is no doubt that it can and has been useful in emergencies. There are many great team out there that use it.
That being said, you are forming/have formed a dog team, not a radio team. Your team will most likly need to talk to others, not on the team that are using PS radio. The people who join will most likly join to be handers, not HAMs.
I would try and get a VHF pair and forget the whole vehicle repeater thing, i really don't see that working well for you. Vehicle repeaters are low power and handhelds are low power, and if your not close to your vehicle all you have is a UHF handhand were most people will have a VHF handheld. If you get get your VHF pair, then get a repeater that you can move around. Now you have handheld VHF radios that can be use on their own as well as with other teams, you have a higher powered repeater that's not mounted in a vehicle that many or many not be near. Also you only have to get one pair, in one band.
As for radios, look at the Kenwood TK-270/280/290.
Cam
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chipjumper
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Currently, Michigan is only about 50% covered by Nextel. There is no coverage in the upper lower and upper peninsula even thought Nextel says it is. The coverage up that way parallels I75.
Thanks to some of the bigger ambulance services here, the Michigan Senate is current lobbing to pass a law the restricts the use of Nextel's as the primary form of communications for any provider. MSDA falls under this category as a EMS provider since we will be licensed as a non transporting emergency medical provider.
Since the original post I have been informed by the state that we will be granted access to the state EMS channels. 155.1600, 155.1750, 155.2800, 155.3400, and over fifty UHF channels designated for MED COMM use to hospitals for medical direction.
However this does not solve the issue of communications within the association. such as an administrative channel and car to car or a miscellaneous BS channel. I have received several recommendations to use the inherent channels that don't require coronation. I am leaning in this direction.
Thanks to some of the bigger ambulance services here, the Michigan Senate is current lobbing to pass a law the restricts the use of Nextel's as the primary form of communications for any provider. MSDA falls under this category as a EMS provider since we will be licensed as a non transporting emergency medical provider.
Since the original post I have been informed by the state that we will be granted access to the state EMS channels. 155.1600, 155.1750, 155.2800, 155.3400, and over fifty UHF channels designated for MED COMM use to hospitals for medical direction.
However this does not solve the issue of communications within the association. such as an administrative channel and car to car or a miscellaneous BS channel. I have received several recommendations to use the inherent channels that don't require coronation. I am leaning in this direction.
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w7com
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inherent channels that don't require coronation
Somehow that just seems right.
Somehow that just seems right.
-Joe@nethead.com, Tulalip, WA
I have a private email server in my basement.
I have a private email server in my basement.
I am trying to get a repeater pair for our ambulance service as well as some simplex vhf tac freqs. We are a not for profit ambulance service so we can get cheaper fees as long as you can prove your not for profit with the IRS.
Now with that said I contacted the ITA which is a freq cord company out of VA if I remember correctly.
They advise that a repeater pair in VHF for 10 years is about $350 or up to 10 VHF simplex for 10 years is about $150.
I would just contact one of them and get your own freq for internal offical use.
Just my thoughts.
Now with that said I contacted the ITA which is a freq cord company out of VA if I remember correctly.
They advise that a repeater pair in VHF for 10 years is about $350 or up to 10 VHF simplex for 10 years is about $150.
I would just contact one of them and get your own freq for internal offical use.
Just my thoughts.
" ah the fatman made a funny!" - Stewie from the family guy.
I went to the doctor and all he did was just suck blood. Never go to Dr Acula - M. Hedberg
I went to the doctor and all he did was just suck blood. Never go to Dr Acula - M. Hedberg
Any idea what the price is for a VHF-Lowband freq, and what it would cost to coordinate a point-to-point UHF / 900MHz link?n9upc wrote:Now with that said I contacted the ITA which is a freq cord company out of VA if I remember correctly.
They advise that a repeater pair in VHF for 10 years is about $350 or up to 10 VHF simplex for 10 years is about $150.
I would just contact one of them and get your own freq for internal offical use.
Just my thoughts.