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I don't want this good thread to get off topic, so i'll settle for a tie
Even though I'm pretty sure my case post-dates yours, and the DMCA would most likely be twisted to apply here
-c
Bob wrote:Clavo, I'll see your article and raise you one. My previous statement said nothing of DMCA.
Friday, April 16, 2004
Xerox confirmed this week that 7200 counterfeit color laser printer toner cartridges worth more than $1.3 million have been seized or quarantined by a number of countries' authorities in the past two weeks.
This follows a global investigation initiated by Xerox Corporate Security and the Office of General Counsel, also involving customs and excise officials from these countries. Xerox notes that the counterfeit toner cartridges were intended for use in Xerox Phaser 780 color laser printers.
The company says that the use of counterfeit toner cartridges results in poor equipment performance, low supply yields, inferior print quality, toner leakage, high cartridge failure rates, and increased equipment downtime--all costing customers time and money.
Xerox urges customers who own Phaser 780 printers to learn how to check the authenticity of their toner by visiting Xerox.com, and says that customers who discover counterfeit toner in their possession should immediately contact the company that they
purchased their toner from, for returns and refunds.
Money Matters
"Hundreds of thousands of illegal products, worth millions of dollars, are removed from commerce each year," says Bill Duffy, president and CEO of the Imaging Supplies Coalition, a non-profit trade association. "This is a problem that faces the entire printing industry, and is something that all manufacturers must remain vigilant in fighting to help prevent damage to the ultimate victim--the customer."
Xerox notes that the confiscations occurred at shipping ports in Hong Kong and other international locations, and multiple locations in the United States. It says that about 4800 cartridges were seized in the international locations, and 2400 cartridges have been quarantined in the United States. An additional incident, it says, is currently pending, and is expected to yield an additional 2000 cartridges, bringing the expected total to 9200 cartridges worth more than $1.6 million.
The company says that it is leading the charge against counterfeiting and other black-market activities, and has a team of professionals who investigate and identify the individuals and companies that participate in these illegal activities.
"Xerox takes an aggressive stance against counterfeiters, and is dedicated to ensuring and protecting customer value through ongoing efforts to identify, investigate, and prosecute counterfeit operations," says George Parry, Xerox Corporate Security investigator. "These latest seizures and quarantines underscore the efforts we take, on a worldwide basis, to protect our customers from counterfeiters."
Ernest Leong of Bytes Document Solutions--previously known as Xerox SA, concludes: "Xerox worldwide, including SA, endeavors to do everything possible to combat counterfeit products, and to safeguard our customers wherever possible."
One of my concerns is what will Motorola do if you call them and say you sold the radio and don't have any contact information for the buyer. Are they gonna believe you, or will you end up with the cops at your door with a search warrant ?
Well, we're going to find out because that's EXACTLY what happened with my "watchbuddy" radio. I'm not going to call them and tell them that, I'm going to write a letter. Additionally, I really don't care WHAT motorola believes. I believe they make a superior radio product, but stormtrooper tactics like this will do nothing but harm their "bottom dollar".
I believe it would be absolutely impossible for them to go any further with it. Get a search warrant based on a sale that took place OVER TWO YEARS AGO?? I hate to be critical of other batlabbers, but I really think that the only thing sillier and more ridiculous than this letter itself would be to actually send them the radio, if I still had it.
The more I think about this letter, the more it seems like such a farce, and a thinly veiled attempt for the "IP Enforcement" unit to find more people to sue for using these radios (and by extension, the internal firmware) that motorola pompously proclaims are "illegal and counterfeit", even though no one is disputing that ALL of the parts used for these radios were manufactured by motorola themselves, and could not POSSIBLY have been manufactured elsewhere.
They're shooting themselves in the foot and don't even know it.
"...will you end up with the cops at your door with a search warrant ?"
_________________________________________________________
On what basis would they ask a judge to issue a warrant? The have not alleged that you are in receipt of stolen property - further - there is NO WAY to identify the radio's the Nick built because Motorola parts have no serial numbers on them. Anybody who works on this equipment can tell you that.
No technician [or anybody else] could take the stand in a court of law and POSITIVELY identify the parts of any particular radio as being ones the Motorola parts department sold to Mr DeLuca.
That's why S.G. is right. Sending in the radio is a defacto admission that you agree with Motorola that the radio is illegal. Not a good plan at all.
If they were to take further action against anyone - it would have to be a civil matter. In a civil proceeding - you [or Motorola] can sue just about anybody for just about any reason.
Isn't this kind of like the firearms (assault weapons ) ban inplemented in certain States? I seem to recall a State issuing a ban of certain types of weapons at one point during the Clintonista administration and they ordered people who were on record as owners to turn them in.
I always wondered what they would say if you told them you sold it at a government sponsered no questions asked buy back operation.
Personally, I wouldn't send a damn thing, especially a $1000 radio!
If it's this easy I should start sending people letters demanding they send their Garmin Rinos to me just because I had the idea years before they were ever produced.
I would think those of you with records of depot repairs of the units are holding the ace. If I were a judge I would laugh them out of court if a defendant showed up with a radio with a depot issued repair tag and a record of repair directly from their facility. That's the kind of stuff you would see in old Perry Mason flicks.
What a farce!
It's another attempt to keep the end user completely ignorant and dependant on the supplier.
How they hell are we to expect anyone to ever invent, design, or innovate in this country if EVERYTHING is IP at up for grabs at a whim if some executive gets a bit worried about the competition?
Bob and Clavo, in reading your articles it looks to me like you are talking about apples and oranges. Similar, because they are both fruit, but definitely different.
One is copying and selling as OEM. Not good! The other is refilling them and designed their own way to trick the printer to use them, BUT being
sold as refilled toner cartridges. What is wrong with that?
I've never personally dealt with this Deluca character, but if he was building parts radios and selling them as OEM Motorola, not good! If he was selling them as parts built radios, then Motorola does not have a pot to pi$$ in!
Once again, if you feel afraid to have your Nick radio, send it to me, pass my info on to M, I will deal with them.
SG
Kilgore: Smell that? You smell that?
Lance: What?
Kilgore: Napalm, son. Nothing in the world smells like that.
Kilgore: I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...
A close associate of mine has placed a personal call to the security department at /\/\otorola pertaining to this issue, His issue simply put is what form of compensation or depot service is going to be provided for two radios that were purchased for public safety use, and motorola wants back.
His legal advice at this point has been that his agency will not return anything for free, either m will "fix/adjust" them, and return them, or no dice.
I found that interesting, and will post an update once I hear one.
allplowedout wrote:A close associate of mine has placed a personal call to the security department at /\/\otorola pertaining to this issue, His issue simply put is what form of compensation or depot service is going to be provided for two radios that were purchased for public safety use, and motorola wants back.
His legal advice at this point has been that his agency will not return anything for free, either m will "fix/adjust" them, and return them, or no dice.
I found that interesting, and will post an update once I hear one.
I would be perfectly happy (if I were in your shoes) if Motorola would say: Pay $X, depot will take the radio's, go over them, repair any "defects", and give them depot stickers.
I would additionally hope that they would go a step further, and leave the flash as is, but the chance of that happening is probably 0.
As I am sitting at my desk at work - it just occurred to me that the number given in the letter is the same number we call for parts and other issues.
For some time now Motorola has had a system that uses caller ID or ANI to identify incoming calls. It is connected to their computer system and keeps records about you so they can "serve you better"
When I call, they know who I am, name, account, ship to address, purchase history, the whole nine yards.
If you call about the letter - I don't think their system will be recording you on their 'good-guy' list.
The more I think about it - the more I agree with SG. They fought Nick to a draw - injunction but no compensation. A hundred radios freely sent in and acknowledged by their purchasers as 'illegal' would give them ammo for further action.
As far as not being yours because the parts were 'stolen' - don't you think if M had that issue with Nick they would have nailed him in a CRIMINAL proceeding???
Just got off the phone with my attorney. His advice to me.......do nothing, don’t call don’t write do nothing! I am under no obligation to return any communication sent by them. I was not named in the proceedings and no judgment has been handed down against me. If circle-M is not willing to compensate me they are not entitled to my property. His last statement to me was; “Let them come and get it!”
So there you have it. That’s my attorney…….anyone else’s attorney have a different opinon?
Last edited by W4YJQ on Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
W4YJQ wrote:Just got off the phone with my attorney. His advice to me.......do nothing, don’t call don’t write do nothing! I am under no obligation to return any communication sent by them. I was not named in the proceedings and no judgment has been handed down against me. If circle-M is not willing to compensate me they are not entitled to my property. His last statement to me was; “Let them come and get it!”
So there you have it. That’s my attorney…….anyone else’s attorney have a different opinon?
On second thought, maybe I WON'T send them a letter... this sounds like pretty good advice, all things considered.....
Interesting thread, and sorry to hear of everyone's plight. The only thing I can question is how Nick obtained the flash files (I'm not too up on the whole flashing thing) and his rights, if any, to use that code in more than one radio. Can someone other than Motorola flash multiple radios with the same flashcode?
From what I understand he purchased the vocons already loaded with his famous "whored out flashcode" 591008-4F1E009 or something like that. 73's GARY N4KVE
The flashcode is in the dongle, right?
There are people who sell software that will totally emulate a donge, correct?
No, the flashcode is not in the hardware dongle, it is contained on a floppy disk (CD for the XTS2500/5000 series). The main function of the hardware dongle is to limit the number of times one can perform the flash. My bet is he stumbled across a used LAPD FLASHport package (or some other customer with a whored out flashcode).
The people who emulate dongles have them connected directly to the computer, not through a RIB. I think it's far more likely he just hacked the RSS to think an answer of 'zero flashes remaining' from the dongle really meant 'go ahead', and could flash radios to his heart's content.
Todd
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
I'm not a huge Nick Deluca fan because of bad business dealing, however give credit where it's due. The man figured a way out to do what allot of us would do if we could. Motorola with all their high paid lawyers and deep pockets went up against Nick and the best they could do was force him stop building the radios. If I was Nick Deluca, I'd write a very detailed step by step guide on how he did it. It would help recoup some the money he spent on lawyers and man that would kick Motorola right in the balls!
I am doing a bunch of flash upgrades at work this week so I will double check this later - but it is my recollection that the flashcode is in the dongle - when you use the RSS to check the dongle it reports the factory order number, number of flashes purchased, number remaining, target radio model number, starting flash code, and ending flashcode.
It also reports the part number of the associated 'flash software' [e.g.:CVN6236G] which is the part number on one of the floppies in the kit. I believe that disk contains the firmware that will be uploaded into the radio during the flash upgrade process. Different firmware versions and firmware for different products come on disks with different part numbers. The letter at the end of the part number changes with the version of the firmware. A particular dongle will only work with the firmware version it was coded to work with.
Obviously this dongle is a different sort of dongle than a 'hardkey' dongle like a Rainbow key that is used with Systemwatch.
The first time you flash a radio with your kit, it takes a long time - approaching 20 minutes - while it uploads the firmware from the disk in the PC to the flash memory in the SRIB. The process then activates a transfer between the SRIB and the radio.
It doesn't actually transfer the 'flashcode' into the radio until the firmware upload is complete, at which point it decrements the counter in the dongle. Subsequent flashes using the same firmware version proceed much faster - five or six minutes each.
I think they designed the process to be as difficult as possible to prevent anybody from learning how it works.
How did Nick do it? Probably with some sort of LAB software that copies the code from one radio to another.
Obviously, the stuff they have at the depot can create any flashcode they want, but I really doubt that Nick had that or he would have fixed that goofy flashcode or maybe even offered your choice of features.
That flashcode Nick was using was floating around for years. Before r0f dubbed it w.o. - we used to call it the 'Chicago' flash code because [supposedly] there was a group of Motorola hams in Chicago who had that in their radios - but who knows where it came from.
According to Batlabs, the LAPD was using different codes :"Motorola considers FlashCodes 840101-8F0000-4 and now 540001-070000-7 to be RESTRICTED"
I think he was using some sort of flash package, otherwise, why would he always have the same crappy old firmware in his radios? You'd think he would have ordered the vocons with the latest firmware available, and jammed in whatever codeplug he wanted with LAB.
Todd
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
So, not being able to know who has the legal flashcodes.... All you need to do is to figure out how many flash codes Nick paid for and then work out a system of rotating use. Monday, one of you gets to use their radio.... Tuesday someone else.... Maybe break it down into half days if there aren't not enough 'legal' radios.
That way no one is making use of any given flash at the same time. <grin>
Maybe a pie graph of sorts, or a short powerpoint presentation would keep those lawyers in their place. I nonimate r0f to draw something up.
-c
Splat wrote:Then that would explain their possible stance better. If he flashed more radios than he was legally permitted to, then one could argue the flashcode(s) someone has in their Nick radio was illegally used. This whole flashcode thing would be their claim of IP rights being misused or even stolen then. Just surmising......
Yeah, draw it up, rOf! I was serious about the flashcode thing. That's the only angle I think they could have on this. If they were smart they'd reflash the radios in question with a basic flash and return them to the rightful owners.
I believe Motorola is just using the shotgun approach. Im sure that Nick sold alot more radios to other people than just the members of this board. If they say send out 1000 letters and maybe 1/2 of those reply and maybe 1/4 of those people are scared enough to actually send in a $1000 radio. It just builds a case against him even more. There is no way they can account for every hacked or pirated radio out there.
I believe its more of an embarrasment on M's part that someone was actually smart enough to circumvent buying a whole radio. im suprized that no one caught it when he was buying tons of controllers and vocon's and whole chassis. He had to have some big $ account to be able to get that kind of hardware.
Does anyone know His history? Was Nick a M employee or just a tech that had half a clue?
I had to double check.
The dongle that is supplied by circle M is indeed the source of at least some of the code.
The people who supply dongle replacements call this a smart dongle or provider dongle.
This is due to the fact that the dongle has an EEPROM.
The latest dongles have a real time clock inside.
The smartRIB is another part of the equation, something I know very little about.
FFParamedic571 wrote: im suprized that no one caught it when he was buying tons of controllers and vocon's and whole chassis.
Does anyone know His history? Was Nick a M employee or just a tech that had half a clue?
Who said he was buying them? Last time I was in Schaumburg, a couple of guys were caught at the airport with a couple of suitcases full of new Motorola *****.
Nick was not an employee, he was connected with a couple of other guys in AZ and the Diablo's MC so I am told, I don't know the biker connection to be 100% fact, but I was told that by a fairly reliable source.
You don't even need half a clue to build a radio from parts, just a parts source.
SG
Kilgore: Smell that? You smell that?
Lance: What?
Kilgore: Napalm, son. Nothing in the world smells like that.
Kilgore: I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...
The Diablo MC connection is 100% correct.
There was a little "gang" in the shipping department at circle M, all cons, who worked together.
This was started as part of a work release program.
The same thing goes on in California with the Hells Angels.
You can buy just about anything from the Gypsy MC in Texas, if you have $$$.
Bread, its not just in the oven.
I like the early BMW ride, so I meet with some patches time to time.
Makes for some wild ****.
FFParamedic571 wrote:Does anyone know His history? Was Nick a M employee or just a tech that had half a clue?
Nick’s history is like a bag of fertilizer the more you spread it the more it stinks. I had several lengthy phone conversations with him when deciding to purchase his rig; my BS light must have been burned out. He claimed to have been the former manager of the Plantation Florida Astro plant, the largest M dealer west of the Mississippi, an LAPD reserve and last but not least the head of the LAPD communications center (retired). I’ll give you a little hint as to where I’m going with this…….LAPD never heard of him!
W4YJQ wrote:Just got off the phone with my attorney. His advice to me.......do nothing, don’t call don’t write do nothing! I am under no obligation to return any communication sent by them. I was not named in the proceedings and no judgment has been handed down against me. If circle-M is not willing to compensate me they are not entitled to my property. His last statement to me was; “Let them come and get it!”
So there you have it. That’s my attorney…….anyone else’s attorney have a different opinon?
This is an excellent post, thank you ! Out of curiosity, what body of law does your lawyer practice ? Has he actually seen the entire letter ? Does he have any technical knowledge of radio ? Has he read this thread ?
spectragod wrote:Who said he was buying them? Last time I was in Schaumburg, a couple of guys were caught at the airport with a couple of suitcases full of new Motorola *****.
Nick was not an employee, he was connected with a couple of other guys in AZ and the Diablo's MC so I am told, I don't know the biker connection to be 100% fact, but I was told that by a fairly reliable source.
You don't even need half a clue to build a radio from parts, just a parts source.
SG
How and where does one get this kind of inside info? What else do you know about "Nick."
Cowthief wrote:Hello.
The Diablo MC connection is 100% correct.
There was a little "gang" in the shipping department at circle M, all cons, who worked together.
This was started as part of a work release program.
The same thing goes on in California with the Hells Angels.
You can buy just about anything from the Gypsy MC in Texas, if you have $$$.
Bread, its not just in the oven.
I like the early BMW ride, so I meet with some patches time to time.
Makes for some wild ****.
COWTHIEF!!! How do you even know all that ? A work release program at Motorola ?? Who ARE you ???
Also, for those of you with "Nick" radios who haven't gotten the letter of death yet, you might wanna consider refusing it when the mailman tries to get your signature. That way Motorola can't say you were made aware of their supposed request.
It's a standard business-sized white envelope with the circle M emblem and the word "MOTOROLA" in bold letters on the upper left corner where the return address would normally go. There is no return address on the envelope. The back of the envelope has 2 peices of green tape on it.
Perhaps LAC-OPS can post a photo of it on his website...
Then how would you piss on the letter? Or burn it over a few beers with friends? Or use it as toilet paper? Or get the information off of it to order the pre-paid box they offer, just to send it back filled with cement with a MT500 inside? Or buy one of those nifty Airsoft saber knock off BB containers on ebay and fill it with lead shot and craft some nice Motorola and ASTRO labels with post it note paper for all the appropriate spots.....
-c
Johnny Galaga wrote:Also, for those of you with "Nick" radios who haven't gotten the letter of death yet, you might wanna consider refusing it when the mailman tries to get your signature. That way Motorola can't say you were made aware of their supposed request.
It's a standard business-sized white envelope with the circle M emblem and the word "MOTOROLA" in bold letters on the upper left corner where the return address would normally go. There is no return address on the envelope. The back of the envelope has 2 peices of green tape on it.
Perhaps LAC-OPS can post a photo of it on his website...
clavo wrote: Or get the information off of it to order the pre-paid box they offer, just to send it back filled with cement with a MT500 inside? Or buy one of those nifty Airsoft saber knock off BB containers on ebay and fill it with lead shot and craft some nice Motorola and ASTRO labels with post it note paper for all the appropriate spots.....
-c
All I can say is Yes!
I've got a spare XTS3000 model 1 case- wanna help me fill it?
BTW, the letter I recieved DID have a return address on the back of the envelope- It's covered by the Green Certified Mail Paper.
Johnny Galaga wrote:Also, for those of you with "Nick" radios who haven't gotten the letter of death yet, you might wanna consider refusing it when the mailman tries to get your signature. That way Motorola can't say you were made aware of their supposed request.
It's a standard business-sized white envelope with the circle M emblem and the word "MOTOROLA" in bold letters on the upper left corner where the return address would normally go. There is no return address on the envelope. The back of the envelope has 2 peices of green tape on it.
Perhaps LAC-OPS can post a photo of it on his website...
I could post it but the previous poster was right. Nondescript white letter sized envelope with a large M and Motorola in the upper right corner and a return address on the back flap..
The USPS signature card was # 7004 1160 0005 3391 xxxx
perhaps the rest are in the same series.
I was on the "Lost Alaskan" run and met some guys who said that they worked at circle M.
I wanted to work at the circle M ranch, so I asked a lot of questions.
I finally got to a "tag" (parole officer) who explained work release to me.
It would seem that a lot of big outfits will hire just about anyone, for a tax write-off.
I did not qualify.
Now, if I was a "black female handicapped", I would have a job.
Or out of the big house.
That is what the lady in HR said.
Remember the olympic games in Atlanta?
CNN later admitted that they had bought circle M radios from "sources".
The local tear-sheet of yellow got upset as it also wanted radios, but did not want to pony up some cash.
I got in some real **** over that, but was in close contact with an FBI agent in San Antonio the whole time, so I did not get burned.
Why do you think the spectra thing is such a big deal?
Motorola security people had a lot of explaining to do to the FBI.
There are people at circle M who would love to have my head on a platter.
This is now true of anyone who might even think about hacking a radio.
Real my post about circle M trying to get police powers.
There is an old federal law on the books that allows police powers to be had by some corporations who work in more than one state.
This is usually the railroad police, but there are others.
Circle M is just about at the point of being the police, or at least they think so.
I will NEVER work with motorola security again.
There is this law on the books that allows the really big players to have police powers.
The railroads, like Union Pacific, etc, have POLICE departments.
AT&T, likewise, has a POLICE department.
Who knows who all else.
This was posted in the past, no issues there.
You will need to ask some of the other members if you want the exact laws, they can re-post if need be.
Someone had posted that circle M was trying to get police powers.
I, like a lot of others, said this was BS, private firms can not have or get police powers, boy was I wrong!
W4YJQ wrote:
So there you have it. That’s my attorney…….anyone else’s attorney have a different opinon?
This is an excellent post, thank you ! Out of curiosity, what body of law does your lawyer practice ? Has he actually seen the entire letter ? Does he have any technical knowledge of radio ? Has he read this thread ?
He is a very wise and accomplished officer of the court who has been practicing for many years. He, for several years sat on the bench as municipal court judge. His current body of practice is general, contractual, and real estate law. However he practiced criminal law for many years. As for the letter, yes he did read it in its entirety. And yes to the knowledge of RF, he has been a Ham for many years and knows of circle-M’s reputation. I ask him if I should consult an IP attorney and he said no. At this point we are not arguing IP theft. It’s a simple case of they want my property and don’t want to pay! His analogy; Company-X wants my property-Y with no compensation, my middle finger-Z should be pointed in the general direction of Schaumburg! As for the thread, no he has not. No time to sit at the computer and read information that is not of any use to him. If this thing goes any further then the information here may become important and warrant his review.
As far as Motorola ever being anointed a private police force, not likely. Comparing Motorola to the Rail Police is not apples to apples. There is no federaly sworn private company policing agencies that I know of. The rail police enjoy powers at the state level and in reality are sworn “STATE’ officers with arrest powers pertaining to their job. If circle-M shows up at you front door (not likely) it will be with federal marshals (under federal court action), state, and/or local authorities. This is still America isn’t it? Motorola not withstanding.
"A railroad police officer who is certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of any state shall, in accordance with the regulations issued by the Secretary of Transportation, be authorized to enforce the laws of any jurisdiction in which the rail carrier owns property."
1)Nick should provide a refund to all who bought radios from him and get the radios back.
2)Nick should send all the radios back to Motorola .
3) End of story for the people who bought the radios from Nick.
Obviously Nick is not going to help Motorola or he just does not have the cash to buy all the radios back. Motorola is hoping the folks who bought the radios will be stupid enough to send the radios in.
I was serious about the flashcode thing. That's the only angle I think they could have on this. If they were smart they'd reflash the radios in question with a basic flash and return them to the rightful owners.
