'Nick' Radios Being Recalled . . . BY MOTOROLA !

[kf4sqb]

I don't have, and have never had, a "Nick" radio, but I am starting to wish I did. I'll echo an earlier sentiment: if you are seriously thinking about sending your radio to Ma /\/\, send it to me instead and send them my contact info as the current owner of the radio. I'm not a lawer, but I really don't see where they have a legal leg to stand on as far as "recovering" the illegeal/improper/dangerous radios. What a joke on their part!

[AR15Ron]

Hello.

I was on the "Lost Alaskan" run and met some guys who said that they worked at circle M.
I wanted to work at the circle M ranch, so I asked a lot of questions.
I finally got to a "tag" (parole officer) who explained work release to me.
It would seem that a lot of big outfits will hire just about anyone, for a tax write-off.
I did not qualify.
Now, if I was a "black female handicapped", I would have a job.
Or out of the big house.
That is what the lady in HR said.
Remember the olympic games in Atlanta?
CNN later admitted that they had bought circle M radios from "sources".
The local tear-sheet of yellow got upset as it also wanted radios, but did not want to pony up some cash.
I got in some real **** over that, but was in close contact with an FBI agent in San Antonio the whole time, so I did not get burned.
Why do you think the spectra thing is such a big deal?
Motorola security people had a lot of explaining to do to the FBI.
There are people at circle M who would love to have my head on a platter.
This is now true of anyone who might even think about hacking a radio.
Real my post about circle M trying to get police powers.
There is an old federal law on the books that allows police powers to be had by some corporations who work in more than one state.
This is usually the railroad police, but there are others.
Circle M is just about at the point of being the police, or at least they think so.
I will NEVER work with motorola security again.

I have read many of your posts, and I am left with one question everytime. Are you lucent when you take your medication? Sorry for the OT post, curiousity can no longer be denied.

Ron

[Cowthief]

Hello.

Someone asked about the connection of Nick and the bikers.
I have known about Nick for several years, since 1996 for sure.
The first parts built radios /\/\ got upset about were the ones that CNN got to cover the olympics.
Motorola ends up selling a smartnet system.
Atlanta.
OK, lets follow this a bit forward.
Houston is the host city to the superbowl, the thought of terror is high on the minds of the American people.
Motorola makes its sales pitch to Houston.
The Harris county smartnet system is a bad joke.
Something happens in the city police department that has a secret service agent arrested for impersonating a secret service agent.
The snafu ends up with the FULL city admin' telling the circle M ranch that there will be no trunking system for the city of Houston.
In fact the chief of police was and is quite upset with /\/\.
While this was going on, I had the letters from the Motorola legal team.
The FCC looked over the spectra mods, as well as several LEOs.
There was no way that a VHF radio was going to be trouble for LE in Houston.
Law enforcement in Houston is UHF for the city and that 800 MHz trunking thing for the county.
I was advised not to have contact with anyone out of state with the radio project, as Motorola was trying to build a federal case.
Remember, by this time I had Houston PD on my side
Next thing you know, JCobb comes up with this countdown, send the radio to one of the bat board members.
The LEO community in Houston said no way, do NOT do this!
The other trouble Motorola had was one of the local MSS (Houston) had been taken to court, the contracts to allow this MSS to put towers on some buildings was held to be void.
Motorola at that point had no choice, the people HAD to work with me.
I had circle M sign a contract that would put an end to this all.
I now carry the Thales radio, paid for by circle M.
Motorola paid dearly for this stunt, this I can assure you.
And, as you can see from some of the posts on this forum, there are people not very happy about this.
I can and will write about circle M.
I will not post any pictures, as this needs to be hosted somewhere.
That would change the legal issue quite a bit.
Houston has split from Harris county on the radio system.
San Antonio Texas has since gone to pro-voice.
Texas Department of Pubilc Safety has removed the circle M trunking system and gone back to analog VHF FM radio.
ARAMCO has replaced all the circle M radios with a mix of other brands, not a circle M in the fleet.
This is all very well doumented.
I like motorola radio, but no longer carry one.
Motorola put in the Wi-Fi system in the Harris county courthouse.
That was the case where the guy got charged with some federal crime for getting access to the system and pointing this out to the court.
He was found not guilty.
Notice that all of this has one thing in common?
Motorola.
Legal issues and Motorola, looks like that is the way it is going to be from now on.

[RRrobby]

This is a follow up to my yesterday post. I totally agree that any interference to law enforcement/public safety should be corrected and prosecuted, if necessary. The case I cited yesterday is a case of an authorized user (ie a fire cheif) trying to save a couple bucks for his community. This not a scanner freak trying to listen in on the state's 800MHZ system.

[RADIOMAN2002]

I havn't had the time to read all the responses to this post so please bear with me.
As far as I see it, Motorola has no claim under conterfit equipment, the radios in question are all made from genuine Moto parts, unless I missed something in the court order. The fact is that they may be programmed to operate beyond what a basic radio does, (Moto has to prove this or risk a sizable civil suit settlement) what realy upsets Moto is that they didn't get their money for these options. Also when you purchase a piece of hardware with firmware or software in it, you the buyer are not prevented from doing anything you want to the product. You can take that XTS and make it a truck wheel chock if you like.(Their only recourse is that if you did not have a software agreement and changed the radio somehow) I believe the main point Moto is making and I suspect is the real reason (since they are now being embarassed by the operators of Moto's multi million dollar PS radio systems) to be that here are a bunch of radios that they have no control over, and could end up on some PS radio system without control.
Motorola cannot make the case that you the purchaser has done anything wrong. As I see it most of the radios sold for close to wholesale price, so Moto cannot make the augument that you the buyer should have know that the radio was not right, stolen etc. It would take up to much of their resources to see if everyone of you has a software agreement, and prove that you violated it. I suspect that they won't even pursue anybody beyond this scare laetter. They are treading on shaky ground and as usual are resorting to scare tactics to get their position accross. I can just see Moto's lawyers going into court and saying that there are a bunch of radios that can get on PS systems and cause harm or jam them. A perfert use of the hysteria as a result of 911.
I too recieved a letter similar to this current one, 10 years ago. I basically tossed it in the trash and never heard from them again.
PS Oh by the way, this sounds a little like what Moto did to the guy who came up with a way to deode MDC4800 terminals, and it wasn't even software they were concerned about it was a hardware circuit. Moto had a major problem, they never encrypted their signals.So what do they do they go after the person who fiqured out how to decode them not using Moto equipment. Perfectly legal but very embarrasing. Then they used the scare tactic again in court, that all PS messaging was unsecure, and a judge ordered the man arrested, all parts he had were to be seized and destroyed. Even the information that is protected by the first ammendment was gone after. Any web site offereing it was shut down. The information is still around but is a little harder to find.

[HOWARD]

I recieved an email from Nick Deluca over some other issues and while I had contact with him, I asked him about his customer records and according to him: Motorola didn't get any customer information from him...he left no paper trail at all. All of the records Motorola got were from the auction sites at Ebay and Yahoo and Motorola must have gotten them from watching Nick's sales or Ebay may have given up the records. Take it for what it's worth...Nick said several Ebay deals fell through (buyer never sent the money) and those people never recieved a radio but they recieved a Motorola threat letter.
Howard

[CTAMontrose]

that makes sense, my buddy tried to buy 2 XTSs from him, sent the money but never got any radios.. he has yet to get any radios.. nor a letter.

this was NOT an ebay deal

[10-95]

I recieved an email from Nick Deluca over some other issues and while I had contact with him, I asked him about his customer records and according to him: Motorola didn't get any customer information from him...he left no paper trail at all. All of the records Motorola got were from the auction sites at Ebay and Yahoo and Motorola must have gotten them from watching Nick's sales or Ebay may have given up the records. Take it for what it's worth...Nick said several Ebay deals fell through (buyer never sent the money) and those people never recieved a radio but they recieved a Motorola threat letter.
Howard

Interesting ! Ebay giving out customer's information to Motorola?? Maybe someone's lawyer needs to take a close look at Ebay's privacy policy. Might be some grounds for legal action against Ebay.


Frank

[xmo]

It would be interesting if anyone actually has contact with Nick to confirm if his companies were in fact in the business of repairing radios in volume before he started selling these units.

It has been suggested that Motorola may be attempting recovery or judgement for parts that Nick supposedly didn't pay for. I consider it unlikely that he could have purchased as many parts as are involved here by simply opening a new account - and not paid for at least some of them. I consider it equally unlikely that Nick backed a truck up to the parts department and walked of with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of parts at gunpoint.

How would Motorola prove which parts were paid for and which were not? It makes this 'stolen property' issue a very tough one for Motorola unless they can intimidate people into sending back virtually all of these radios.

I know they would like to see Nick behind bars - but at what cost? Have they compared the list of names of purchasers of the radios to those people known to them to be in significant positions in the radio business? Consultants? Contract evaluators for major system project bids? Persons in a position to influence purchases for major accounts? Persons whose neutrality could be seriously affected?

Even small agencies today may be spending millions of dollars on P25 ["interoperable"] radios with homeland defense grants. Or maybe not this year. Maybe put that off until competetive products are available. Maybe we need personal protective gear, decontamination stuff, responder training, etc...

Somebody on the SALES side of the house should be pushing this issue up toward senior management - Corporate Management. For the potential to make a point, recover some fraction of a million dollars, and the satisfaction of seeing Nick incarcerated - the legal beagles may be spending some poor sales schmuck's quota [or several quota's]

They have already made their point about counterfit radios. A point the had every right to make. As far as Nick owing them a lot of money - that's as much an indictment of Motorola's own management [or lack thereof] of their parts accounts as it is of Nick himself.

Win the battle - lose the war..

A guy I know once observed: "What amazes me most about Motorola is not how good you guys are at shooting yourself in the foot - it's how fast you can reload!"

[10-95]

XMO wrote:

A guy I know once observed: "What amazes me most about Motorola is not how good you guys are at shooting yourself in the foot - it's how fast you can reload!"


Exactly! The guys at Motorola have lost contact with the customers. It's all about the bottom line at Motorola , the company has become a big machine with no brain. A little bit of good will on their part would go along way.

Frank

[HOWARD]

Way back when I first dealt with Nick he told me he was in the repair business and started rebuilding radios with parts. He quoted me prices on just about anything Motorola builds. I believe he also had dealings with Transcrypt or EF Johnson because he quoted me prices on their digital radios also flashed for all the typical stuff. The first year I dealt with him everything went smooth and then about a year a half ago he started taking 90+ days for products. Then payment and no product. Nick is now trying to make good on what he owes me, but still hasn't returned any money as of yet. I know for a fact at least one Federal department that dealt with Nick on reapirs and I'm not sure if they actually bought any new radios from him.

[spectragod]

OK.... for the record, Motorola HAS contacted me...... they want me to collect all your "Nick" radio's at my booth at the Dayton Hamvention this year!!

Really, before Nick flooded the market, there were about 8 guys across the U.S. that dealt with high end two way communications. I have spoke about this to a couple of board members here.

And for the most part, all the "surplus" astro equipment, went through these guys before anyone else saw any of it. I can honestly say I know how and where most is/was obtained.

The bottom line, if you plan on buying equipment of this nature, even if it's from someone you know, plan on leaving no paper trail, i.e., cash, cash, cash.

If you don't want to wind up on Mother M's short list, this would be your best recourse.

As far as what Cowthief says, not a real clue with what's going on with that boy. Either he is just agreeing or actually knows something. I will say this though, you would be surprised what you will find buried in the Arizona sand.

SG

[Cowthief]

Hello.

The proof of my posts is the fact that my trouble with circle /\/\`was LONG before this latest thing.
You can look up the case against me, it is public record.
And, yes, Motorola is making a lot of trouble.
Most of this will bite them in the end.

[batdude]

Most of this will bite them in the end.

and how is that?

1st - legitimate agencies gain control of their systems (via advanced sys key)

2nd - the grey market of astro equipment begins to close up

3rd - grey market sellers disappear

4th - grey market buyers disappear


now - explain to me how this is "BAD" from their standpoint?


let me make sure i get this right - the removal of the "used" "grey" market of motorola radios will adversely affect their bottom line?


batdude tosses bullsh*t flag #2


doug

[xmo]

"...Most of this will bite them in the end...."
____________________________________

I think there are two sides to this.

By protecting their IP, stopping guys like Nick, increasing sytem security with password and Advanced Key protection - Motorola can improve its position with its major account customers.

By harrasing private citizens who bought a radio off ebay that Nick [or someone else] may or may not have made out of parts that may or may not have been paid for WILL put their bottom line at significant risk - depending on the influence on purchasing decisions that may be effected by one or more of the individuals targeted by Motorola.

Targeting Mr. DeLuca makes sense. Targeting individuals who are victims instead of partnering with them - cowthief is right - bad move.

[batdude]

WILL put their bottom line at significant risk - depending on the influence on purchasing decisions that may be effected by one or more of the individuals targeted by Motorola.

i fail to see the logic here guys.


tell me how many of the guys here (really) have the ability to influence the decision to spend millions of dollars on a radio system?

(dollars to donuts - NOT A SINGLE ONE OF US)

so the logic goes (make sure i'm getting this) - don't buy that motorola system - becuase ....

...they target the little guy who tries to buy radios on ebay?

...they try to keep illegitimate radios out of the market place?

...they try to protect their own IP?

...they are concerned about illegitimate radios on trunking systems?


if you guys haven't figured out my position yet - i am with motorola on this one.

those radios ARE illegitimate (not necessarily illegal - they didn't say in the letter where the parts came from)

those radios COULD pose a risk to a public safety user (i've been in a nick radio... have you? missing snap in's / missing rf shields... need i continue? some of them were obviously put together by a moron.

what i disagree with is the proposed resolution offered to the user.

Moto should offer (within restraints of course) to allow all the said radios to enter the depot service center - be repaired/fixed/re-flashed as appropriate - then RE-SERIALIZED - and sent back to the owner - for a fixed fee.

even if that fee is $500 - then you are still in possession of a $3000-$4000 radio for about $1300-$1500 (depending on what you paid nick)

if all moto is going to do is smash the nick radios to bits (which you know is what they'll do) - why not make a buck on the depot service? why not make an end user "happy" - instead of threatening him with legal action?


motorola / mr. herrington read the posts on this board regularly.

standing offer to Mr. Herrington:

Come to dayton. Dinner is on me. Leave the attorneys in Shaumberg.


doug

[ScannerDan]

This came from E-bay. It belongs to Mot_Software (http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? iewUserPage&userid=mot_software) I think that is person is also known as Patrick L. Harrington.




Why was my e-Bay auction for a ‘New’, ‘Used’ or 'Parts Built' Motorola two-way radio(s) halted?

item # 1 deleted


2) Only Motorola or a Company licensed by Motorola can legally manufacture radios that incorporate Motorola intellectual property. There are NO ‘individuals’ licensed by Motorola to legally build or sell Motorola two-way radios, thus, a seller auctioning a “Motorola” radio “built from new Motorola parts”, incorporating Motorola copyrighted ‘Flashcode’ and/or a modified Electronic Serial Number (ESN) is committing an illegal act. Persons caught selling these illegally manufactured radios may be subject to arrest and, if convicted, penalized with up to 5 years in prison and up to $250,000 in fines.


Also, a “Motorola” radio “built from new Motorola parts” is NOT ‘Type Accepted’ for use within North America by the U.S. Federal Communications Commission (FCC) or Industry Canada, NOR, is it ‘Type Accepted’ by any other Country’s communications certification organization, thus, its use by a purchaser is illegal throughout the world.

[Cowthief]

Hello.

Yes, some of the parts built radios are a piece.
The late Monty Sisco would tell you, alignment was almost always off, yes.
Now, what about a radio someone has forced a codeplug into?
The alignment is going to be off.
And, motorola is somehow going to keep me off "X" system?
Let me see now, every radio I had at the time was VHF.
Motorola was not at all upset about the /\/\ built tactical radios, that cover the same range and more, with no need for RSS whatsoever.
Yes, Motorola is out to protect, but it is not the public.
That tic-tic-tic? nothing, just nextel.
Tic-tic-tic-ti-tic <shortened to make the thread readable again-wavetar>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BANG!!!!!

[HOWARD]

Nice work ScannerDan!

[spectragod]

Personally speaking, both Doug and Mark are correct.

Sometimes one person's word/opinion makes a world of difference, business's close up every day because they piss off one guy in a government entity, he refuses to stop doing business with them, others will tend to follow suit, I have seen this happen on a couple occasions.

I can see M's place as well, once you get rid of all the gray market radio's, they can jack the price to where they want it.. not that it hasn't happened already.

I think the big thing in play is the use of software, you send your radio in, and low and behold, you are not a purchaser of RSS, nor should you have access to a sys key, "and how did you come about these items?", will be the question.

Having the radio is not a crime, but possessing illegal RSS, Sys keys/or generators is the stuff that they will hang you out to dry with. I can say that it is getting dangerous to play that game since 9/11.

And the Nick radios are illegitimate, Mother M and Daddy Nick, there is something that is defiantly going to be screwed up with them.... or should I say.. has been screwed up with them.

Also, don't forget to swing by my space at Dayton and drop off your "tainted" Nick radios.

SG

[stay-con]

This from their corporate website.
http://www.motorola.com/content/0,,75-107,00.html

"The Code of Business reaffirms what each Motorola employee stands for: Doing the right thing. Every day. No excuses."
Ed Zander
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer


Our Key Beliefs - The Way We Will Always Act

* Uncompromising Integrity
* Constant Respect for People

So, I have to wonder. What's Ed going to say when somebody points out Mr. Harrington's behaviour finally?

Jeff

[hamptonbeach]

OK - this may all have been hashed out already - I'll admit to not reading all of this very long thread.

There are 2 assumptions to go by, neither on are listed in the M letter.
If Nick's parts were stolen, then you are in receipt of stolen property. But M has no authority to retrieve the property. They can forward the information to the proper legal autorities and let them decide how (or if) they are able to confiscate it.

If Nicks parts were not stolen, then M has no right to the "hardware" as even if Nick bought the parts from M, M didn't make the parts themselves. M didn't manufacture that Impress battery, they bought it from another battery maker and slapped there label on it. M didn't manufacture that plastic case or buttons or pad keys, some sweat shop in Taiwan probably did. M didn't manufacter the resistors, capacitors, EPROMs or circuit boards. they simply assembled them (and maybe didn't even do that).
So M doesn't have any IP claim on hardware because they didn't manufacture the hardware anyway.

What M does have a claim to, and not made very clear to anyone, is the software that is flashed into the EPROM. They engineered the software options to interact and work with the assembled radio. M sold those software options to potential customers. Most if not all of the Nick radios had whored-out flashcodes that Nick flashed himself using unauthorized copied of the firmware. I doubt (but don't know) that Nick paid royalties to M for every radio he flashed.

So M would have an IP claim on the radios software flash. But again, M can't demand that you forfeit the radio. They would have to present a case to the proper authorities that these radios had been flashed without compensation to M. My guess is the claim would be against Nick and not the owners of the radios. But even if it was decided the owners were in possession of illegaly obtained software, the most you would have to forfeit would be the options flashed into the radio or an option to pay M their lost royalty to be able to keep it.

I no longer have my Nick Astro Saber, but there is no way I'd part with it or tell anyone who I sold it to until the police showed up at my door with a warrant for it or a subpeona for me to appear in court.

[alex]

I just pulled 3 pointless posts to this thread out, and will continue to pull posts from here if the topic of discussion does not continue to remain constructive.

Thanks,

Alex

[Fuel4300]

Is it possible that Motorola is trying to recall these radios to reduce the liability that they create?

When I got my xts3000 from Nick I was thrilled with it but the only bummer was that I would never even think of using it at work and would be very hesitant of using it with my fire dept. God forbid something were to happen and my portable failed because it did not perform up to spec. Here is something that quite literally your life could depend on, it most likely is not built as well as it is intended to be, and it has Motorola written all over it.

The fact that it was not assembled and aligned by Motorola does not make them immune to the liability associated with it.

Mike

[ai4ui]

Another IP angle. This may be a factor, or it may not...

Many of us here have assembled working radios from several broken ones (bench radios). Does anyone know if Mr. Deluca was buying these new from Motorola or are these bench radios?

All these radios have a little sticker inside them that says "Contains technology patented by Digital Voice Systems." I'm sure Motorola pays a royalty to Digital Voice Systems for the use of the technology for each unit Motorola sells. Buying a parts radio can kind of put Motorola in the position of the use of this technology by Motorola (its their parts afterall) without compensation to Digital Voice Systems.


If they are bench radios, then Digital Voice Systems got their money when each radio was originally sold. If they are assembled from new parts, then I would think that Digital Voice Systems would be wanting compensation for all these radios out there using their technology without compensation.

I will pay dearly for this post, I broke the screen on my XTS3k putting it back together after reading the little sticker

RG

[FAC911]

Has motorola returned anyones phone calls yet? I know a bunch on people waitting to hear from them

[lobos305]

I would consider such a letter as an offer. My counter-offer would be to do nothing. What's the worst that can happen? You go to small claims court (this is a civil matter under $5000). The M attorney states his case, you (defending yourself) state yours. The judge decides. Worst case: You have to give up the radio. Best case: M does nothing, or loses the case.

Call their bluff and don't respond.

[Wowbagger]

Tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic- tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tictic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BANG!!!!!

And thank you ever so damn much for WIDENING the whole damn conversation on everybody's browser.

Moderators - may I suggest, if possible, you go insert SPACES into Cowthief's post as I did when I quoted it.

[wavetar]

Tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic- tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tictic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BANG!!!!!

And thank you ever so damn much for WIDENING the whole damn conversation on everybody's browser.

Moderators - may I suggest, if possible, you go insert SPACES into Cowthief's post as I did when I quoted it.

Even better, I shortened it. How's that?

Todd

[kb0nly]

Tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic- tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tictic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-
tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BANG!!!!!

And thank you ever so damn much for WIDENING the whole damn conversation on everybody's browser.

Moderators - may I suggest, if possible, you go insert SPACES into Cowthief's post as I did when I quoted it.

Even better, I shortened it. How's that?

Todd

THANK YOU!

[kb0nly]

Whew, what a read to get through this thread.

The man reason i am here is because i know someone who owns a "Nick" radio. Whats odd is that he purchased his directly from Mr Deluca and therefore never received a letter. Most likely due to Mr Deluca not keeping accurate records of each individual sale.

So, let me ask this. Has anyone who purchased a radio from him without the use of Yahoo or Ebay received this threatening letter? I think eBay is the one that buyers, read that as "victims", should be going after. That is unless Motorola used a court order to get that information, than there is nothing wrong with eBay passing on the information.

On a related topic, i had a run-in with Motorola last year. I was selling a bunch of stuff that i no longer needed. Including a pile of Motorola Manuals that i got from shop that closed and auctioned off everything. I didn't know that some of the manuals were copies made by the closed business, they looked really really good for copies. But Motorola claimed that i was in violation of their copyright laws on manuals that were for equipment 20+ years old. I didn't know anything was wrong until eBay deleted my auction without even contacting me and then emailed me contact information to ask Motorola why the auction was removed.

Wow, what a shocker. Motorola has so much pull that one note to eBay and they delete the auction no questions asked. I contacted the person at Motorola that i was referred to, and was told the pictures on my auction show some manuals in three ring binders that are not originals. Photo copies made by the closed shop, obviously they bought one manual and copied it so all techs had a copy.

Now i never said they were all original. And i sold the entire lot as used manuals obtained from a liquidation auction. But Motorola sure got a bunch in their shorts. I will have to look and see if i can find the info on the guy who i contacted at Motorola. I do know he was a Ham, because he told me his callsign when he noticed mine is my eBay username.

I don't think its the same guy involved with this case, but the name does sound familiar.

[hamptonbeach]

eBay will pull any auction with one email if you sign up with eBay's VeRO program and indicate the auction is infringing on your IP.
eBay does not verify that you in fact have any rights to the property you claim is being infringed upon - they rely on your signed statement indicating such.
eBay is out to protect eBay ....

See:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/v ... owner.html

[dbrock411]

Maybe I've missed a response by Deluca during this thread, but I made the following observations from the 'court minutes' posted earlier: It appears that Motorola did sue and serve Deluca with the complaint, and a month later a STIPULATION was filed by and between Motorola and Deluca, STIPULATING to an injunction against Deluca. A stipulation, of course, is an agreement BY THE PARTIES TO THE LAWSUIT....Deluca would have to have signed it.

I'd personally be interested in hearing from Deluca if he didn't figure it would be (a) cheaper and (b) safer (although not necessarily in that order) to agree to the injunction rather than fight this matter in Court. I'd also like to see a copy of the stipulation and injunction to see exactly what was agreed to.....any one live near that District Court that could snag a copy to see what the deal is?

Darrell

[wb4bsd]

Bottom line.

You, in your heart, know that buying a Nick radio is wrong. Yet you do it anyway and then get pissed when you are found out.

Its all about convieniance and when M takes you out of your comfort zone and spanks you for doing something you knew in the first place was wrong you get upset.

Its all fun and games until some one gets hurt, i.e. a system gets hacked and is shut down by the wrong person or group.

My thought on this is to just buy legit radio's and then do what ever you want with them after that. Thats what i do. Do i pay more for them? You bet your hinny i do. Is it worth it in the long run? You bet it is.

If you had a product would you want someone making poor copies of it for a nice profit? I sure wouldn't.

Maybe i am ranting and i didnt take the time to read all the post since there is about 150, but come on, buy legit radio's and don't worry about it. And if you need one, let me know. I happen to have a great contact!

Oh yeah, Happy Valentines Day!

[Johnny Galaga]

Bottom line.

You, in your heart, know that buying a Nick radio is wrong. Yet you do it anyway and then get pissed when you are found out.

Wrong? At the time I bought my radio I had no idea it was wrong.

[ANB_Medic]

I've stayed out of this one thus far, as I don't have (nor have I ever) a 'Nick' radio. I have read every post, however.

Quite simply... /\/\ has pissed a lot of people off. I personally have a very bad taste in my mouth when it comes to Motorola - not only because of this, but the many things that they have been up to lately. They don't give a $hit about their customers unless they are spending a couple million bucks on infastructure and equipment. They will take people to court for hacking their upper-level radios, but they will also GIVE AWAY the software to do so. I received FOR FREE the software required to program Astro Portables and Mobiles. It was offered to me through MOL, and I told them on three occasions that I shouldn't have access to it. After that, I said screw them and downloaded it. I'm sure the IP coppers will read this and send me a nasty letter telling me to send them my computer or something now. That's cool... I need more a$$-wipe anyway.

What would happen if someone took a bunch of Kenwood or Vertex parts and started making hacked radios? I'll tell you.... Nothing!

I don't know enough about it to make it work, but I wonder if someone could write their own firmware for a /\/\ radio, burn it on to a blank prom, and put it into their hardware. Wouldn't that solve the IP issue?

Sorry for the rant... Just had to vent.

Todd

[Johnny Galaga]

Hello.

I was on the "Lost Alaskan" run and met some guys who said that they worked at circle M.

Cowthief, I just wanna say I don't believe a word of what you're saying. And to the moderators, I realize this is a long thread, but I hope you wil not lock it at some point. Motorola's "deadline" is March 1, and it would be nice to be able to post about what happens after that time.

Thanks !

[allplowedout]

You know that EVERYONE just loaded MOL. (those who have access to it) to see if astro 25 is there. Anyone smiling yet?

<-------Boogeyman,

[hamptonbeach]

WB4BSD

I did not then, nor do I now think that buying a Nick radio was/is wrong.

Poor copy? He was using genuine M parts - who's to say his assembly skills are any worse than the people M hire for $7 an hour.
If anything, Nick was probably worried about quality control more than M is, because Nick's livelyhood would be on the line if the word got out his radios were junk.

When I shop in the supermarket, I choose the "store" brands. Same product, costs less and only missing the label.

I'll reiterate my earlier post in I think that M only has a claim on whatever was flashed into the radio, not the hardware itself. I agree with sja505, if someone else was able to write software to run the radio, M would have nothing to stand on ...

[ANB_Medic]

I've heard of 7 people who had access that shouldn't have... No doubt there's more.

Now, If they'd only give me access to the software for a radio I actually have, I'd appreciate it.

Hey MOL guys... Can you hook me up with some Spectra and Mtx Software?? Thanks!

Todd

[xmo]

It looks like we may end up taking this thread to record length!

I think is is a productive discussion because it has made a lot of people THINK about some very serious issues.

Motorola had every right to stop Mr. DeLuca from selling radios that HE assembled. They have the exclusive right to market their IP and tradenames.

There are a lot of other issue that are - ah - fuzzier.

Let's address the concern of Fuel4300: "...God forbid something were to happen and my portable failed because it did not perform up to spec...."


Here's the deal. These radios aren't made like radios of old. They aren't assembled out of resistors, capacitors, coils and such. Aside from the chassis and housing there are only TWO electronic parts in an Astro Saber and THREE in an XTS3000. [plus one if you add a secure board, but Nick's radios were not secure equipped]

These are FRU based products. The important fact being FRU = Field Replaceable Unit. RF board, VOCON, Controller. That's it. Motorola sells these parts. Nick used genuine Motorola Parts. Calling into question the ability of those parts to function properly in any percentage content of factory original plus FRU undermines the entire availability of the parts - which is no doubt a contractual requirement for many of Motorola's large self maintained accounts - CAN'T GO THERE.

That leaves us the assembly process. TRUE FACT - Motorola had no control over Mr. DeLuca's assembly process -BUT - very big BUT - that does not mean that it is not possible to assemble these parts in the field into a properly performing radio. Motorola's published service documentation as well as Level II Service Procedures Video training produced by Motorola's Worldwide Learning Services clearly show COMPLETE disassembly of the radio into component parts and re-assembly from the component parts into a working radio.

These materials are provided to permit Motorola Service Shops, and self maintained users to repair these radios in the field. To say that these materials are in error - that it is not possible to put a group of parts - GENUINE MOTOROLA PARTS - together into the form of a radio and have it function according to Motorola' published specifications would undermine the relationship with hundreds of entities. CAN'T GO THERE.

This is why Motorola should have offered the purchasers of the radios a path to have the radio's proper assembly and alignment verified by the Motorola depot for a reasonable fee that would compensate Motorola for both the depot labor and its lost revenue for the radio's IP content. This, along with a request for the purchaser to sign [and have notarized] an affidavit agreeing that Mr. Deluca infringed Motorolas IP and assigning any recovery for said infringement to Motorola. Done deal. Who wouldn't go along with that?

[SVT]

IDEA!!!!

COME TO AN AGREEMENT WITH M to give back the radios for legal representation. They get what they want. And everybody that has a screwed up radio is happy because the might get there money back...Just an idea

[LAC-OPS]

IDEA!!!!

COME TO AN AGREEMENT WITH M to give back the radios for legal representation. They get what they want. And everybody that has a screwed up radio is happy because the might get there money back...Just an idea

That's your "IDEA"??

As far as the radio that I bought from Deluca in '02, it worked fine for the time I had it. It was checked by a Motorola trained technician on the recommended test equipment and it performed better than published spec. Before this whole "letter" fiasco, that was also the case with most of the other ones I've read about and heard about, here on Batlabs and elsewhere.

There's a whole lot of people here saying "screwed up radio", or "unsafe" or "counterfeit" radio and I believe for the majority of people who wound up with a "nick" radio, that just wasn't the case.

Sure, nick seems to have ripped a bunch of people off at the end, but the truth remains that the radios WERE ASSEMBLED FROM GENUINE MOTOROLA PARTS.

Why would they be automatically defective or sub-standard?

[wb4bsd]

How could you not know its wrong. Its like modifiying a Dish receiver to get satellite for free. Its wrong! Now of course that is theft and a whole different issue, but it still wrong.

Hamptonbeach - you buy store brands at the supper market? Well, have you ever seen a Food Lion version of an XTS3000? I havent either, but if you find one let me know and i will take a look at it. Because that stuff is made by the same people with a Food Lion name on it. You know that. Grow up and admit it.

I am not trying to stir the pot at all here. I rarely post stuff like this but darnit, i could have bought a Nick radio too, but didnt. I decided to get a legit one so incase i was ever questioned i could be honest about it and not have to worry.

Someone said that M deserves to get hack because of the way they do business. Boy thats mature to say. Since when did 2 wrongs make a right? Thats like saying your wife deserves to get slapped and then doing it. What are you going to tell the police when they come arrest you, Oh officer, she deserved it! HEHEHEHEHE.. That will go over nicely.

[Bugs Bunny]

This has been an interesting thread, but the one question I have, is everyone says Nick used genuine Motorola parts supplied by Motorola. How do we know this as fact since Nick seemed to have incomplete records? How do we know he did not get a supply of QC rejected parts which should of been run through a shredder or crusher? No one but Nick and Motorola truly know where his part supply came from and neither are talking. Maybe some of the guys here with MOL accounts can go through the parts pricing on what it would cost to assemble a radio from parts to give us an idea what the Motorola cost of these parts are. I am aware there are different tiers of pricing, that Nick might of been during work for the US Government and getting the best pricing (though I would think if this is the case the DOJ would be looking into this), but it sure would be interesting to see what the cost of an XTS3000 would be, if built from parts.

Bugs

[batdude]

Sure, nick seems to have ripped a bunch of people off at the end, but the truth remains that the radios WERE ASSEMBLED FROM GENUINE MOTOROLA PARTS.

Why would they be automatically defective or sub-standard?

hmmm.

yes, they were assembled with genuine motorola parts. where the parts came from, no one knows. i guess even if i dig a box full of chevy parts out of the GM dumpster marked "defective - destroy" - they are still genuine chevy parts, right? If some buddy steals a box full of parts from the chevy dealer, they are still genuine chevy parts, right?


i base any judgements of the nick whore radios (henceforth (NWR) solely upon my experience with them. since i have personally opened up three of his "creations", I feel pretty well qualified to discuss them.

i'll draw a comparison here.

take a ford truck.

buy all the parts to build it yourself.

put it together (don't use a manual or any test gear - nick didn't)

if you have extra parts left over ... don't worry about it

if you are missing some parts... don't worry about it

when it's all done, the car radio has a whine in the audio due to no shielding on the in car computer and the dash lights blink on and off constantly....the door chime won't shut off....and the drivers side door gasket doesn't keep the rain out.

now start driving the truck around town.

your buddy borrows your FWT (Ford Whore Truck) to go get some beer. The blinking dash lights cause him to swerve and hit a pedestrian. Now, WHO IS THE PEDESTRIAN GOING TO NAME IN THE LAWSUIT?

Joe Bob the drunk, or FORD MOTOR COMPANY? Or Both?

get the picture?


now, carry this line of thought over to the typical NWR.

Start with the flashcode, second string of digits. 4F1E, which breaks down to (more or less):

H07 Multikey software encryption
Q354 OTACS (Over The Air Channel Steering)
Q353 OTACR (Over The Air Channel Reassignment)
Q352 Soft ID
Q351 MODAT Operation
W947/Q947 APCO Packet Data
Q387 Conventional voting scan
Q173/G173 Smartzone OmniLink Operation
G182 Enhanced Radio Call Protocol

some of these options are INCOMPATIBLE when both / several are in the radio at the same time. Multikey software encryption? That went away when VSELP transitioned to IMBE (non standard). OTACS/OTACR is something that only LAPD uses to my knowledge - and toss MODAT in the crapper you LOSER because it seems that the 4F1E flash typically produces a fatal, uncorrectable error in CPS in the MODAT emergency screen - that you can't clear and requires you to slave a channel for MODAT emergency.....

that code right there should tell ANY buyer of xts's to RUN AWAY.

I am not against all the radios out there with no tags - sometimes there are reasons that a radio has no tags - replacement of the back housing of the radio is one perfectly valid reason....best bet - know who you are buying the radio from - and decide for yourself if you are willing to put your life on the line with that radio.

[W4YJQ]

Bottom line.

You, in your heart, know that buying a Nick radio is wrong. Yet you do it anyway and then get pissed when you are found out.

Yes you are ranting! Yes you should read all the posts so you can comment intelligently! What, do you work for cirlcle-M? Let me assure you there are many people out there who bought NICK radios that thought and were told by NICK via the telephone that they were indeed legitimate. It really pisses me off to no end to have us (NICK purchasers) portrayed as the bad guys. A piece of advise…… go back and read all the posts!

[LAC-OPS]

"to my knowledge - and toss MODAT in the crapper you LOSER because it seems that the 4F1E flash typically produces a fatal, uncorrectable error in CPS in the MODAT emergency screen - that you can't clear and requires you to slave a channel for MODAT emergency..."

I'm a "LOSER"??? SCREW YOU!!! Where the hell do you get off calling me a LOSER because I was happy with my radio? Did YOU ever have a "nick" radio? If not, you are more pompous and arrogant then I thought you were.

Thanks for your OPINION, you JERK, but you remind me of that old saying: Opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one and they all stink.

Translation: The fact that you can't even answer a post without insulting someone reduces the value of the opinion in your post to ZERO.

And, by the way, if I still had the radio and I was still in the field, I wouldn't hesitate to use it on a daily basis. It performed well and was reliable.

[xmo]

You, in your heart, know that buying a Nick radio is wrong. Yet you do it anyway and then get pissed when you are found out.


Yes you are ranting! Yes you should read all the posts so you can comment intelligently...
_____________________________________________________________

Let's please stay away from this sort of dialog - there is no intent to lock this thread at this time - but that will change fast if things deteriorate.


Now - as to the subject of 'parts built' radios. This Nick thing is not Motorola's first experience in this arena.

Way back [so OK - WAY WAAAY back] Motorola used to manufacture their portable radios in Schaumburg. Then somebody got the bright idea to move portable production to sunny Florida so they built a new plant there.

When they closed down the line in Schaumburg they had barrels of left over incomplete HT220 main boards - many of which were rejects that failed some test and had not made it back to re-work. They sold all of them as scrap to Spectronics. Art was allowed to sell them rather than scrap them if the purchaser had a valid ham license.

Art was very strict about that and as a result a lot of hams had a state of the art portable at a time when there really were no comparable products for the amateur market. You had to buy a whole parcel of other parts from your local MSS to turn your board into a radio. Frame, front & back covers, etc. Motorola would even sell you a blank serial number plate.

Unfortunately, the world is full of - ah - entrepreneurs. Some of those hams saw a buck to be made. Now, building one up for a fellow ham - maybe not such a bad thing - BUT - some of those guys went beyond - sold them to commercial accounts.

So one day a Motorola sales guy shows up at one of his customers to check on a proposal he left. "When are you going to be rady to buy?" he asks. The answer was: "Oh, we did already! We got them from another Motorola guy for a much better price!"


Well - there was no 'other Motorola guy' - all Motorola radios were sold direct at that time - no dealers - and no sales territory overlap.

Ever since Motorola figured that out - they have had a bad taste in their mouth regarding parts built radios and hams in general.

[batdude]

i will not even get into slamming you, but i will reply in kind to your post.

piece by piece


I'm a "LOSER"??? SCREW YOU!!! Where the hell do you get off calling me a LOSER because I was happy with my radio? Did YOU ever have a "nick" radio? If not, you are more pompous and arrogant then I thought you were.

i am pompous and arrogant. i am also usually correct. i have also been here a while longer than you have.

only a total idiot would think that the "loser" comment above was a volley directed solely at you - it was directed at the morons walking around hamfests with modat turned on - for no reason other than "it sounds cool"... but I will add that any person who uses MODAT is a loser. <period>



Thanks for your OPINION, you JERK, but you remind me of that old saying: Opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one and they all stink.

most of what i have posted is not opinion. If i state an opinion, I usually preface the statement with "IMHO" or something similar.



Translation: The fact that you can't even answer a post without insulting someone reduces the value of the opinion in your post to ZERO.


i didn't answer your post. i merely used a statement from your post to direct thoughts and my opinions on the topic. and for someone here who has contributed just a little bit more than your 14 posts, :o OFF.


And, by the way, if I still had the radio and I was still in the field, I wouldn't hesitate to use it on a daily basis. It performed well and was reliable.


you know, i almost edited my original post to reflect that NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THE THREE NICK RADIOS I HAVE HANDLED EVEN HAD AN O-RING ON THE HOUSING.

how's that for "TRUST YOUR LIFE ON THIS RADIO"?


dolt.