I will post install pics when all is complete
Man i think im going to need another battery.....or a bigger alternator
Good Lowband Radio
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Good Lowband Radio
ok guys i need some help, i have 2 syntor X9000's in the truck so far, im out of installation areas for a third syntor, The syntors are mounted to the back wall of the cab, is it ok to mount another syntor to the floor under the seat? will it get too hot? if thats the case can someone suggest something else?
I will post install pics when all is complete
Man i think im going to need another battery.....or a bigger alternator
I will post install pics when all is complete
Man i think im going to need another battery.....or a bigger alternator
I don't see any problem with mounting under the seat as long as you allow for some airflow and don't pack a bunch of other junk in around it. The local municipal trucks all have their radios mounted under the seat, bolted right to the passenger side of the floor under the bench seat.
I guess it would also depend on the amount of transmit time, therefore how much heat would be allowed to build up. I have remote mounted a few ham radio rigs with removable faces to under the seats in various cars, never a problem as long as you allow for free air movement.
I guess it would also depend on the amount of transmit time, therefore how much heat would be allowed to build up. I have remote mounted a few ham radio rigs with removable faces to under the seats in various cars, never a problem as long as you allow for free air movement.
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
Oh, and you might want to consider both a larger battery and a larger alternator to handle the load.
Both cheap insurance against getting stranded somewhere. Good rule of thumb that i was taught years back by an old hat at radio and other electronics isntallation, size the alternator for the vehicle load, the battery is just storage for starting. And yes, for short time usage when the vehicle is not running, but with 100+ watt radios you wouldn't want to chat too long and end up with a battery not strong enough to start the vehicle.
My minivan has an oversized alternator, the original was only a 60 or 80, don't remember which, replace it with a 120 from a local auto parts store. With all the radios, computer, tv and dvd for the kids, whatever i want to use, i have plenty of power available. Jump starting a family members car the other day was easy as pie. After failing to jump it with another vehicle and having it start the first try from mine was something to be proud of!
Both cheap insurance against getting stranded somewhere. Good rule of thumb that i was taught years back by an old hat at radio and other electronics isntallation, size the alternator for the vehicle load, the battery is just storage for starting. And yes, for short time usage when the vehicle is not running, but with 100+ watt radios you wouldn't want to chat too long and end up with a battery not strong enough to start the vehicle.
My minivan has an oversized alternator, the original was only a 60 or 80, don't remember which, replace it with a 120 from a local auto parts store. With all the radios, computer, tv and dvd for the kids, whatever i want to use, i have plenty of power available. Jump starting a family members car the other day was easy as pie. After failing to jump it with another vehicle and having it start the first try from mine was something to be proud of!
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
Sounds like your set on the battery capacity side of the issue.
I have always liked to err on the side of cautious. It never hurts to upgrade things like an alternator.
I have always liked to err on the side of cautious. It never hurts to upgrade things like an alternator.
Duct tape is like the force, it has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together.
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
"I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own!" - Adam Savage
I can definitely vouch for the idea of an auxilliary battery. One of the first things I did when I got the hankerin' to install some radios in my truck was to plan out a dual battery system, with electronic isolation.
It's quite simple, really. The primary battery is the standard truck battery (which will be replaced with an Optima Red Top starter battery when it goes kaput). The auxilliary/secondary battery bank is two Optima Yellow Top 55Ah batteries (in case you can't tell I really love Optima batteries :) tied in parallel. I have 4 gauge wire running between the two banks, with an electronically controlled solenoid between them.
The solenoid's control has sense leads going to the two battery banks, and will automatically connect the batteries for charging when it senses >13v across the primary battery (easy way to tell that the alternator's going and thus the truck's running), and disconnect them when it senses <13v.
So, all my radios, auxilliary and warning lighting, etc, run off of the auxilliary battery bank. It's really nice and means I could run the secondary bank flat (especially since they're deep cycle batteries), and still have plenty of juice in the primary battery bank to start the truck.
It's quite simple, really. The primary battery is the standard truck battery (which will be replaced with an Optima Red Top starter battery when it goes kaput). The auxilliary/secondary battery bank is two Optima Yellow Top 55Ah batteries (in case you can't tell I really love Optima batteries :) tied in parallel. I have 4 gauge wire running between the two banks, with an electronically controlled solenoid between them.
The solenoid's control has sense leads going to the two battery banks, and will automatically connect the batteries for charging when it senses >13v across the primary battery (easy way to tell that the alternator's going and thus the truck's running), and disconnect them when it senses <13v.
So, all my radios, auxilliary and warning lighting, etc, run off of the auxilliary battery bank. It's really nice and means I could run the secondary bank flat (especially since they're deep cycle batteries), and still have plenty of juice in the primary battery bank to start the truck.
Charging a dual battery system
[quote="akardam"]I can definitely vouch for the idea of an auxilliary battery.
The auxilliary/secondary battery bank is two Optima Yellow Top 55Ah batteries (in case you can't tell I really love Optima batteries :) tied in parallel. I have 4 gauge wire running between the two banks, with an electronically controlled solenoid between them.
[/quote]
I learned many years ago that you realy don't want to tie different batteries together with a solenoid or heavy switch unless your desparate. You stand the chance of creating an explosion from the high current that can flow betweeen them.
if your looking to charge the batteries when the engine is running, a much better way is to install a dual batter isolator. This takes the output of the alternator ties to the common of the diodes and then you have an isolated port to each battery. There is no chance of either batter draining the other.
Some will say that you get a voltage drop in the isolator. yes that is correct. But if you just lift the wire off the alternatort output now and connect that wire to one side of the isolator, the remote voltage sensing on most electrical systems will correct for the small voltage drop.
The other point to make here is that the good battery isolator do not use regular silicon diodes. The voltage drop is too high for that application.
This is the methode that is used on all fire trucks and ambulaces of any new construction. There use to be a problem with one or the other battery bank going dead from not being used and charged. The battery isolator takes care of that and keeps both batteries charged all the time the engine is running.
Jim
The auxilliary/secondary battery bank is two Optima Yellow Top 55Ah batteries (in case you can't tell I really love Optima batteries :) tied in parallel. I have 4 gauge wire running between the two banks, with an electronically controlled solenoid between them.
[/quote]
I learned many years ago that you realy don't want to tie different batteries together with a solenoid or heavy switch unless your desparate. You stand the chance of creating an explosion from the high current that can flow betweeen them.
if your looking to charge the batteries when the engine is running, a much better way is to install a dual batter isolator. This takes the output of the alternator ties to the common of the diodes and then you have an isolated port to each battery. There is no chance of either batter draining the other.
Some will say that you get a voltage drop in the isolator. yes that is correct. But if you just lift the wire off the alternatort output now and connect that wire to one side of the isolator, the remote voltage sensing on most electrical systems will correct for the small voltage drop.
The other point to make here is that the good battery isolator do not use regular silicon diodes. The voltage drop is too high for that application.
This is the methode that is used on all fire trucks and ambulaces of any new construction. There use to be a problem with one or the other battery bank going dead from not being used and charged. The battery isolator takes care of that and keeps both batteries charged all the time the engine is running.
Jim
Re: Charging a dual battery system
What the?!Jim202 wrote:I learned many years ago that you realy don't want to tie different batteries together with a solenoid or heavy switch unless your desparate. You stand the chance of creating an explosion from the high current that can flow betweeen them.
Uh, maybe if you don't have it setup correctly. I'm not quite sure where you were convinced that too much current makes things explode (arc, melt, vaporize, yes, explode, pretty unlikely). The worst that typically would happen is you'd have done something silly like not use large enough gauge wire and you'd end up melting/vaporizing the leads because you were trying to put too much current down them.
Again, that's not going to be a problem if you design your system correctly. My battery banks are both grounded to frame (read: really freakin' big conductor!) and uses an appropriately gauged lead (4 gauge) rated to carry 150% of the highest current load I would ever experience (starting currents) over the distance of the run between the banks.
In addition, the heavy duty solenoid between the banks is electronically controlled, and in automagic mode, it will not be engaged until after the truck is started. Not engaged == no connectivity between the two banks == no current path == no current flowing. And even if I do put it in manual mode, where it is connected, the starter and other applications would only draw significant amounts of current off the auxilliary battery bank if the primary battery bank were severely discharged, and even in that case, as I already said, the connectivity between banks is rated to more than handle the starting current.
The thing *I* don't like about the battery isolators is that it more or less defeats the best advantage of having two battery banks, in that you can start the vehicle or jump the primary battery from the auxilliary battery. With these battery isolators, you can't really do that unless you get out your jumper cables, and that may not be practical, especially if you gotta move like right freakin' now!
I have used the aux battery and the hi current contactor (starter relay) with the continous duty rated coil for more than thirty years. This only parralells the batteries when the engine/alternator is running.
I, also, have never had a problem, and it has saved me a few times. Saved by being able to activate the contactor (relay) and use the aux battery to start the truck.
My four radios are on the main battery, and the inverter and aux on the aux battery.
akardam, what is the brand name, part for your HD solenoid and or electronic control?
"the heavy duty solenoid between the banks is electronically controlled, and in automagic mode, it will not be engaged until after the truck is started. "
I, also, have never had a problem, and it has saved me a few times. Saved by being able to activate the contactor (relay) and use the aux battery to start the truck.
My four radios are on the main battery, and the inverter and aux on the aux battery.
akardam, what is the brand name, part for your HD solenoid and or electronic control?
"the heavy duty solenoid between the banks is electronically controlled, and in automagic mode, it will not be engaged until after the truck is started. "
Will,
I use a TJM IBS system. Here's a link to the product page (they're in Australia):
http://www.tjmproducts.com.au/dual_batteries.html
I don't remember the part number off of the solenoid that came with the kit, though I do remember it looked like it'd been made in by a company in Spain (go figure).
I use a TJM IBS system. Here's a link to the product page (they're in Australia):
http://www.tjmproducts.com.au/dual_batteries.html
I don't remember the part number off of the solenoid that came with the kit, though I do remember it looked like it'd been made in by a company in Spain (go figure).
Connecting 2 auto batteries together
akardam
I get the impression that you have not been around large batteries very much. I use the term large as in big diesel truck batteries. They are more prone to the explosion problem than regular car size batteries. Why you ask? They can produce more current flow.
Two things can happen to cause a battery to explode. Both are caused by the hydrogen gas that is generated when a lead acid battery is chargeing. If you put a high rate of charge in any lead acid battery, it will outgas the hydrogen gas being generated. This is a normal process. The problem comes in when the charge rate gets excessive. Large amounts of the gas will be generated.
Now that I have given a short course in chemistry, lets talk about the real issue. When batteries get old, the internal resistance goes up. When this happens they start to lower the amount of current they can produce. If the capacity of the battery goes low enough, you won't be able to start the engine.
With that said, now we talk about taking and connecting a dead or low charged battery across a good low resistance battery. If you get the conditions just right, you put a tremendous
ly high current flow in the old battery. This causes an almost instant release of large amounts of hydrogen gas. Now all we need is a loose connection on a battery post, ground connection or what ever.
If you talk with an engineer with the battery companies or the engineers with the battery isolator companies, you should get the same information. I have seen large bangs come out of fire trucks when the drivers turned the Cole Hersey switches to "both" and then mashed the start button.
You say you have never heard of this. Keep pushing your luck. I have seen a number of mechanics go to the hospital for acid burns to the face because a battery blew up in their face. They were working under the hood with a runaway voltage regulator or a bad battery and they managed to make a spark by the battery. Many times it was from a clip lead they were using to cause the start solenoid to pull in while trying to trouble shoot a problem.
Keep dreaming that batteries don't bolw up.
Jim
I get the impression that you have not been around large batteries very much. I use the term large as in big diesel truck batteries. They are more prone to the explosion problem than regular car size batteries. Why you ask? They can produce more current flow.
Two things can happen to cause a battery to explode. Both are caused by the hydrogen gas that is generated when a lead acid battery is chargeing. If you put a high rate of charge in any lead acid battery, it will outgas the hydrogen gas being generated. This is a normal process. The problem comes in when the charge rate gets excessive. Large amounts of the gas will be generated.
Now that I have given a short course in chemistry, lets talk about the real issue. When batteries get old, the internal resistance goes up. When this happens they start to lower the amount of current they can produce. If the capacity of the battery goes low enough, you won't be able to start the engine.
With that said, now we talk about taking and connecting a dead or low charged battery across a good low resistance battery. If you get the conditions just right, you put a tremendous
ly high current flow in the old battery. This causes an almost instant release of large amounts of hydrogen gas. Now all we need is a loose connection on a battery post, ground connection or what ever.
If you talk with an engineer with the battery companies or the engineers with the battery isolator companies, you should get the same information. I have seen large bangs come out of fire trucks when the drivers turned the Cole Hersey switches to "both" and then mashed the start button.
You say you have never heard of this. Keep pushing your luck. I have seen a number of mechanics go to the hospital for acid burns to the face because a battery blew up in their face. They were working under the hood with a runaway voltage regulator or a bad battery and they managed to make a spark by the battery. Many times it was from a clip lead they were using to cause the start solenoid to pull in while trying to trouble shoot a problem.
Keep dreaming that batteries don't bolw up.
Jim
batteries exploding
Forgot one other point, when a battery gets old, it has a tendancy to flake of part of the metal plates under shock. If you hit a pot hole or somehow put enough mechanical shock into the battery and get enough of the plate material to fall off, it will eventually short out the cell. When that happens, ther battery terminal voltage drops and the alternator tries to bring it back to normal.
With one cell shorted, the other cells try to take the extra voltage potentail and over charge. Guess what, you generate large amounts of the hydrogen gas doing this. So now you have set the stage waiting for the just right conditions for an explosion.
You may not even notice that the battery has a shorted cell untill you have trouble trying to start the engine. If you leave the jumper cables on for a couple of minutes like some people do to add to the charge of the battery, you have set the stage. When you go to remove the jumper cables, you create a spark as the clips come off the battery post. BANG.
Now your going to say if you removed the negative cable first and had it on the engine away from the battery, that won't happen. Maybe, but most people put both cables right onto the battery posts.
Jim
With one cell shorted, the other cells try to take the extra voltage potentail and over charge. Guess what, you generate large amounts of the hydrogen gas doing this. So now you have set the stage waiting for the just right conditions for an explosion.
You may not even notice that the battery has a shorted cell untill you have trouble trying to start the engine. If you leave the jumper cables on for a couple of minutes like some people do to add to the charge of the battery, you have set the stage. When you go to remove the jumper cables, you create a spark as the clips come off the battery post. BANG.
Now your going to say if you removed the negative cable first and had it on the engine away from the battery, that won't happen. Maybe, but most people put both cables right onto the battery posts.
Jim
Re: batteries exploding
One big benefit of Optima batteries... sealed construction, no outgassing. No corrosion, either.Jim202 wrote:Forgot one other point, when a battery gets old, it has a tendancy to flake of part of the metal plates under shock. If you hit a pot hole or somehow put enough mechanical shock into the battery and get enough of the plate material to fall off, it will eventually short out the cell. When that happens, ther battery terminal voltage drops and the alternator tries to bring it back to normal.
With one cell shorted, the other cells try to take the extra voltage potentail and over charge. Guess what, you generate large amounts of the hydrogen gas doing this. So now you have set the stage waiting for the just right conditions for an explosion.
You may not even notice that the battery has a shorted cell untill you have trouble trying to start the engine. If you leave the jumper cables on for a couple of minutes like some people do to add to the charge of the battery, you have set the stage. When you go to remove the jumper cables, you create a spark as the clips come off the battery post. BANG.
Now your going to say if you removed the negative cable first and had it on the engine away from the battery, that won't happen. Maybe, but most people put both cables right onto the battery posts.
Jim
Bigger batteries (or multiple batteries tied together in a bank) of course can produce more current. Setting aside the fact that I'm using Optimas, which are absorbed glass mat batteries, and thus are not normally subject to leakage and offgassing, what's the difference between drawing high currents off of one battery versus two batteries? I could have two batteries tied in parallel right next to each other (like I do right now), and based on what you're saying, I would face just as much of a risk with that setup as I would with the two batteries seperated by a longer run and a solenoid.
The way I see it, one'd have the same problem with a solenoid based system as with a alternator isolated system, if you had failing or damaged batteries. That's the main reason I chose the Optimas, since they're a lot safer that way. Of course you face the potential for problems if you don't maintain your equipment! Are you going to honestly tell me that with proper care and maintenance, and modern battery tech like AGM, I'm still driving around a ticking time bomb if I use a solenoid to seperate my two banks of batteries?
The way I see it, one'd have the same problem with a solenoid based system as with a alternator isolated system, if you had failing or damaged batteries. That's the main reason I chose the Optimas, since they're a lot safer that way. Of course you face the potential for problems if you don't maintain your equipment! Are you going to honestly tell me that with proper care and maintenance, and modern battery tech like AGM, I'm still driving around a ticking time bomb if I use a solenoid to seperate my two banks of batteries?
