Cost Effective Secure Radios?

[SlimBob]

What are the most cost-effective UHF mobile and portable radios?

I keep eyeing the Spectra and Saber, but need to go secure on the cheap. That includes keyloaders. (Please include an example from both mobile and portable use. )

[kg4lmt]

For a portable...I would say the MTS2000.

Charles

[KG6EAQ]

MX series if you can find them with the reprogrammable proms. Saw a set go on eBay 12ch, with the D series proms, DES and the keyloader for under $300 for 6 radios.

[SlimBob]

I can get by on two channels -- direct and repeat.

[Leadenwah]

For simple privacy on our business repeater, considering cost and availability, would we be better installing DVP or DES modules and hybrids in our Secure Capable Spectra conventional UHF radios?

I understand that Modules, Hybrids, a Keyloader and proper cable to radio will at least be needed. Are there additional components I haven't considered?

We're not transmitting state secrets or anything even very interesting so our needs are not critical.

Thanks,
Geo

[RESCUE161]

What band? If it's UHF low, then you can get dirt cheap Sabers and Spectras that have the DES module already installed on them. They are always on Ebay and are mostly in very good condition.

Plus if it's just DES, you can get by with a cheap key loader. The 'XL' adds more to the final cost though.

[n9upc]

I find that cost effective secure comms without getting a new repeater to pass data I find that rolling code voice inversion works out to be the best and the most cost effective.

I know some people are against rolling code but if you do not have the money to get a quantar or have the money for DES or DVP modules this works great.

It passes PL and DPL without issue and you can use it right over any repeater (as stated earlier) I have also found that it works with LTR systems with great ease.

Just my opinion.

[SlimBob]

What band? If it's UHF low, then you can get dirt cheap Sabers and Spectras that have the DES module already installed on them. They are always on Ebay and are mostly in very good condition.

Plus if it's just DES, you can get by with a cheap key loader. The 'XL' adds more to the final cost though.

UHF high band. Yeah, all those UHF low radios are either gubbernment surplus or stolen from The Feds.

[RADIOMAN2002]

It may take a little wotk, but buy Secure Gov split UHF equipment, then buy some non-secure hi-split UHF equipment, and switch the guts. 1/2 of my X9000 were Gov split UHF Secure. Bought some regular X9000 and switched the accys and control boards, you can do the same with Sabers. I also have about 100 Secure MX radios. Just took the rf modules from non secure 470 radios and put them in Secure gov split ones. Most Gov equipment was DES, so I switched fron DVP to DES. I don't know if any of the stuff comming out of the Gov auctions nowadays has the modules in it, but thats the most econimical way to go Secure. BTW you can make a real cheap DES repeater using 2 MX radios.

[mostar]

SlimBob,

> I keep eyeing the Spectra and Saber, but need to go secure on the cheap.

In the long run, the Spectras and Sabers may well be your best, and most cost-effective, solution.

Both of those radios are plentiful in the used/surplus market, and there are abundant parts available for them as well.

> For a portable...I would say the MTS2000.

The MTS2000 is a nice radio, but far more expensive than the Saber.

> MX series if you can find them with the reprogrammable proms.

Securenet MX's can definatly be had on the cheap. Some potential problems and additional costs may be involved, though.

MX's do not support the -XL variants. You would be limited to DES or DVP.

Most MX's are crystal radios, so there would be additional cost of re-rocking them for your freqs. The -S (synthesized) MX's are less common (though still plentiful), but they are still not RSS-programmable. They require the old Moto suitcase programmer, which few dealers have.

And, finally, the MX's are pretty tough, but they are what....30 years old now? The MXs might save you a bit in the short-term, but could very easily become more expensive in the long run.

> I can get by on two channels -- direct and repeat.

This opens up a whole other can of worms....you will be able to use the radio in clear (non-secure) mode for both direct and repeat, but you will not be able to use the repeater to pass securenet traffic, unless it is a securenet repeater. Which brings up another cost vs. useability issue...DES and DVP tends to be a bit cheaper than DES-XL/DVP-XL, but there is a substantial increase in useable range with the -XL variants. My own non-scientific findings are that DES/DVP has about 50% of the useful range as non-secure, whereas DES-XL has better than 80%. Depending on your needs, you may want to spend a little more there to have a more useful solution.

A Saber I would definatly be my recommendation for your handheld.

And, the Spectra would be my reommendation for the mobile. You don't really have a lot of other options...the MCX100 is a lot more uncommon than the Spectra, and finding parts can also be problematic. The Syntor...well, there are a lot of potential issues here. Like the MX's, they are not RSS-programmable. If you have the capability to burn proms for them, or have somebody who can, this is a non-issue. The Syntor X9000 is RSS programmable, and a very nice radio, especially if you need high-power mobiles (another advantage of the Spectra - you can pick and choose the version that meets your needs - no point in having a 100 watt radio turned down to 20 watts, if all you need is a 20 watt radio....), so that may be an option for you, but Syntor X9000's don't tend to cost a whole lot less than Spectras. Also, many Securenet Syntors have external Securenet boxes, which adds a bit more complexitiy...more room required for install, keys needed to operate the box (very, very, very few of the physical security housings on ebay come with the keys...you'd most likely need to drill the things apart and change the locks), etc.

> UHF high band. Yeah, all those UHF low radios are either
> gubbernment surplus or stolen from The Feds.

I've gotten several mid-split UHF Sabers on eBay. The big trick there is actually finding a seller who *knows* what split the radios are....

> Plus if it's just DES, you can get by with a cheap key loader. The
> 'XL' adds more to the final cost though.

The -XL will add a bit more cost, both in terms of the keyloader, and the modules themselves. But it is a pretty minimal cost increase, with a substantial performance increse. If you think you might need it, you're better off spending a little extra at the outset, rather than having to upgrade later. The only thing to avoid in a keyloader would be the "DX" versions, which are substantially more expensive than the "AX", "BX" and "CX" variants, and are only required if you're keyloading ASTRO radios.

Leadenwah,

> For simple privacy on our business repeater, considering cost
> and availability, would we be better installing DVP or DES modules
> and hybrids in our Secure Capable Spectra conventional UHF radios?

First, as mentioned above, if you plan on using securenet over your repeater, your repeater has to be securenet-capable as well.

But, to answer your question, DES would be the better choice, primarily for reasons of availability. Fewer people used DVP. The surplus market heavilly favors DES. Having said that, if you find a quantity of DVP modules that fits your needs, there is no reason not to go with DVP. As you said, you're not dealing with state secrets, either protocol is more than adequate for most users.

> I understand that Modules, Hybrids, a Keyloader and proper cable
> to radio will at least be needed. Are there additional components
> I haven't considered?

If the radios are secure-capable as you stated, then no, that is all you'll need. A MX battery charger, and battery for the keyloader. The Spectra KVL cable can be made out of an old MX speaker-mic connector and a Spectra mic connector on the other end, and you're in business. The only other issue is whether or not you want to use securenet over your repeater, and whether or not your repeater is secure-capable.

[RESCUE161]

The Spectra KVL cable can be made out of an old MX speaker-mic connector and a Spectra mic connector on the other end, and you're in business.

If you can find a Spectra mic connector with all of the pins. All the ones I've ever seen only have the "middle" pins leaving out the 4 on the outside and you need those 4 to load keys into the Spectra (dash mount type).

[SlimBob]

i was thinking that if the crypto would not pass the repeater as is, we can remove the audio processing and just run flat.

Man, I'm starting to think I'm going to be lucky to do this for under $400 a radio.

[W2IRT]

i was thinking that if the crypto would not pass the repeater as is, we can remove the audio processing and just run flat.

Man, I'm starting to think I'm going to be lucky to do this for under $400 a radio.

Then, as was posted earlier, why not look into a good rolling-code inversion system? If you are looking for tactical encryption--as opposed to strategic--this is a solid alternative that will not require a secure-capable repeater as well. For your needed price point you can certainly equip existing radios with Transcrypt, Midian or similar boards that can switch inversion frequencies up to 30 times a second with random dwell times. Many can be securely over-the-air re-keyed as well. Certainly worth looking into at any rate.

[Leadenwah]

Thanks to you all for this great information.

I never considered the possibility that the repeater would not accept the Securenet signals and this one is surely not a Securenet repeater.

Good advice on the DES v DVP.

The rolling code inversion sounds like a good alternative.

I will look up " Transcrypt " and " Midian " for sites. If I recall correctly, Midian is an old outfit which was making all sorts of tone boards back in the Mocom days. I believe that they even got into some sort of mods for IMTS mobile phones.

Many thanks,
Geo.

[/\/\y 2 cents]

Go with Saber I's with DES XL or DVP XL. Good price, Awesome radio. Used to be the best of the best, and many still consider it best of the best. What else could you want. Also if you want a little less secure solution but possibly a lower price, go with gp350's with the AVS boaed which isnt as secure as securenet, but it pretty much takes an expert or very determined listener to crack it. AVS would also work with a non-secure repeater just fine which saves $mulaah$.
Steve

[SlimBob]

Then, as was posted earlier, why not look into a good rolling-code inversion system? If you are looking for tactical encryption--as opposed to strategic--this is a solid alternative that will not require a secure-capable repeater as well. For your needed price point you can certainly equip existing radios with Transcrypt, Midian or similar boards that can switch inversion frequencies up to 30 times a second with random dwell times. Many can be securely over-the-air re-keyed as well. Certainly worth looking into at any rate.

Because I'm assuming that if anyone is going to take the time to attempt to listen to our communications, they are willing to record it and process it after the fact -- leaving minor encryptions quickly broken.

But I suppose $$$ may drive the project.

[W2IRT]

Then, as was posted earlier, why not look into a good rolling-code inversion system? If you are looking for tactical encryption--as opposed to strategic--this is a solid alternative that will not require a secure-capable repeater as well. For your needed price point you can certainly equip existing radios with Transcrypt, Midian or similar boards that can switch inversion frequencies up to 30 times a second with random dwell times. Many can be securely over-the-air re-keyed as well. Certainly worth looking into at any rate.

Because I'm assuming that if anyone is going to take the time to attempt to listen to our communications, they are willing to record it and process it after the fact -- leaving minor encryptions quickly broken.

Breaking high-security psuedo-random rolling code encryption is not a trivial matter, though it's not even in the same ballpark as digital, of course. I suppose if it's for use in a police service or deep undercover where lives or national security are on the line, then DES-XL or better would be the minimum, but for commercial purposes, IMHO it's not worth it.

I was with a TV station's news department way-back-when and we went to Transcrypt. For what we put over coded, the story was old news in an hour. We didn't have Over-the-air rekeying, but we DID have four different codes that we could switch between with ease.

Recovered audio was very clear and understandable on the Midland VHF-Hi radios that were in each ENG cameraman's car.

Drove the competition nuts, too

[SlimBob]

Yes, I'd also like to thank everyone who has been involved with the thread -- most interesting and intreguiging. Anyway, most of my concern is that any one who is likely to intentionally break our comm would probably be very computer savvy, as we are... a computer company...

and yes, driving the competition batty is what we intend to do...

[Gerbil]

ok, now i'm curious...

whats the application?

[SlimBob]

ok, now i'm curious...

whats the application?

communication between founders of a fledgling ISP.

[RADIOMAN2002]

I hope you don't use the radios too close to the computers. They have a funny way of crashing systems.
As mentiuoned in this post, Sabers and Spectra'a are great, If you can get them cheaply enough. Unfortunately most E-bay sellers either don't know or just want to get rid of a Gov split radio and not be stuck with it. All the Sabres I have seen on E-bay with DES-XL are Gov split. Those that are not are way more than any MX series radios. You can do the same with the Sabers as with the MX series, buy Gov split secure radios and then some non-secure hi-split radios and swap the modules, but in the long run it's going to cost you about the same as buying (if you can find them ) hi-split uhf secure Sabers.(also if you don't already have the software and programming tools you need for the radios, a MX and any other radio is going to cost you about the same to have someone else program it for you) With the MX series first I wouldn't even think of using a crystal version, (unless to get the proper split modules out of it) The DES module is not capable of proper code detect (opening on just your key and not every body elses) also, the crystal version DES or DVP cannot tell whether an coded message or clear message is comming in, resulting in some rather strange sounding audio, if you are using it on a commercial channel.
Making a DES capable repeater is not that hard using MX portables, BTW running a repeater in flat audio mode will NOT pass DES or any digital signals. First off most recievers cannot handle the digital signal, due to bandwith constaints (especially the Radius series radios) the incomming signal has to be reclocked and resynced and then sent out. Now if you are talking about making a XL capable repeater, forget it. You would have to buy a XL capable one for BIG bucks. Look around, if you are only looking for 2 chan close in communications than any of the radios will do, but if you want to be able to go through a repeater, some MX-S portables are the way to go. Over the past few years I have seen MX-S Secure radios go from $150.00 ea to about $1.00 ea. If you bought 25 radios you easily could make quite a few for less than 1 Saber.

[1 Adam 12]

What is the approximate size of your building, the primary material and also do you have an area outside your facility that can be accessed by the public.... You may find if the density of your building is good enough and if someone cannot park right outside your front door... that between the low output radios, the building and some space between you and anyone that may try to listen it may not allow for much signal to get out.... If you can get a couple of radios ...try it....

[radio-link]

the incomming signal has to be reclocked and resynced and then sent out. Now if you are talking about making a XL capable repeater, forget it. You would have to buy a XL capable one for BIG bucks.

I made a good working repeater from olt crystal radios, feeding the discriminator out directly DC-coupled to the modulator. Works just fine for DES, DVP, -XL, packet radio 9k6, POCSAG, other kinds of FSK, and, when exactly adjusted, even for APCO25.