Codeplug data as intelluctual property?

[kd6kml]

I know we have a good knowledge base here, so here's my question...

Who does the data contained in a radio's codeplug belong to? We know that the RSS, firmware and such belongs to Ma M, but what about what the tech creates with the RSS?

The reason I ask is that I did a little job fixing a station that was acting up due to incorrect programming. I used the owner's computer and RSS to make the fix, and the RSS was properly obtained from Motorola. There are some issues revolving around the job, and I would like to demand that the changes I made be removed and the station be returned to it's non-working configuration as the changes were based on my knowledge. I want the changes removed, and I don't want a copy of the codeplug data or anything like that. I just want the original data that was in the station when I was started (which was saved on disk) put back into the station as to render it in the same condition as when I started. Do I have any legal standing to make this demand? I would rather be told yes or no here before spending money on a lawyer just to be told no.

Thanks,
Josh

[Cowthief]

Hello.

This is kind of like a machanic who had fixed someones auto' and then had an issue,usually payment.
Can the mechanic simply remove the repair?, well,yes he could,but at that point the car is not repaired, no one can collect.
Just like the mechanic,you NEED to get everything in writing, then,if you are actually "in the clear", file a petty lawsuit in small claims court.
If you had used the customers computer, simply fixed the radio, payment not having been discussed beforehand, your oral contract is not worth the paper it is written on, and if you do change the operation of the station, could be very easily in a lot of legal trouble.
To answer the question, who does the actual radio belong to?that is the person who owns the codeplug.
The issue is not the codeplug, per-se, but the services rendered.

[JAYMZ]

Well.. since you own the radio don't you own the data and contents there in? Maybe I haven't doped up enough lately to understand the legalities of it but if Motorola is coming after me over something I could do to a Spectra by all means... call my lawyer.

[k4wtf]

I think you're going to have to pretty much bite the bullet on this one. When I was working as a broadcast engineer, I reworked an entire station (four studios, 2-AM and 2-FM), along with configuring their PRIZMs and Optimods. When I left the station, I would have been in deep doo-doo had I went and "undid" my changes, even if it had only been to bypass the PRIZMs or make them "sound" like they did before I properly adjusted them.

Consider it a deposit in the "good karma" bank if you will. While I understand exactly where you're coming from, I think you'll be happier in the long run if you aren't don't demand that they "break" the radio. Something about burning bridges and the like.

--
John

[jcobb]

You might call around to a computer shop - what you did is very similar to what they do to "fix" PCs that the owner has hosed up.

At least, you may be able to put a "mechanic's lien" on the radio.......



Jack

[Nand]

This sound sounds similar to a service station putting the correct amount of air in my car tire as a service so that it is properly inflated and later demanding that the air be removed to its previously low pressure.

If the parties involved understood that you would be remunerated for your service, then you can bill them. If not, you should not expect to get paid and cannot demand anything at all from the other party, including the demand that they revert to the original configuration.

It is also difficult to prove that it was you who made the code plug changes and not someone else at another time. And what parts of any changes are yours etc.
Motorola already claims intellectual property rights on what they call radio profile data.

Nand.

[nc5p]

This is sort of related but what if someone created their own (not copied Motorola's) RSS? Kind of like the guys making their own automotive service software.

[RKG]

Short answer (Do I have legal right . . . ?) is "No."

Long answer: The issue has nothing to do with proprietary ownership of the data loaded into the radio via the RSS. Since that data is entirely functional, it would not be protectible under either copyright or patent.

The issue is whether you have a legal right (A) to make changes to someone else's radio, over their objection, or (B) to demand that the other guy not have the benefit of your labor. The obvious answer to (A) is no, and in fact making those changes over the owner's objection would be a crime of some sort. The answer to B would be no in the absence of a mechanics' lien statute in your state applicable to radio techs. There are no such statutes.

If the issue over which you're fighting is payment for your services, take them to small claims court. If the issue is something else, I don't have an easy answer, but leverage by reverting the radio to its prior (non-functional) codeplug is not in your arsenal.

[srefurd]

Just a thought. Maybe put them in small claims court instead of spending the money on an attorney. I am unsure of the $ limit in CA, but you might be able to accomlish something without a whole lot of cash out. It's only like 60$ here in FL (been a while though)

R

[kd6kml]

My question has been answered...

Thanks

[srefurd]

Other thought is, they screwed it up one time they'll probably do it again. Next time just tell them to F##K off

Just a thought
R

[RADIOMAN2002]

It's food for though, but all my customers codeplugs are purposely corrupted by me, so A: they can't go to another shop and get the info out of it.(No cloned radios on my repeater) Or B so no one can see the information who hasn't any bussiness doing so.

[Cowthief]

Hello.

Yes, there are people who will corrupt a codeplug, for whatever reason.
The most common thing is to set a password, on all radios a dealer might sell, even if it is going to another state, so the customer will "have" to go to that dealer.
We have a dealer who took this one step further, by putting repeaters on sites without any agreement, however this dealer now has untill the end of this month to remove EVERYTHING, the legacy contracts are no more.
This dealer has a station license for a location that can not be used.
Actually, a lot of locations that can not be used.
Play fair, because it will all even out in the end.

[kd6kml]

I know a fellow that got some radius mobiles that had wires swapped or cut in the mic connector so they wouldn't program. He just put on another front panel and programmed it.

[mancow]

So, I suppose it's ok for your mechanic to swap out you car computer with some off brand he only knows then, so you can only get service at his shop?

ILLEGAL!

simple......


mancow

[jcobb]

Yeah, but if they called him in to fix the radio 'cuz it wouldn't work - it seems wrong to stiff his payment just because "all he did was do something with a computer".....


Just my 2 pesos worth.



Jack

[Cowthief]

Hello.

Yes, it is wrong to say labor has no value, but, you must be clear as to your terms BEFORE you begin.
I have had people ask me about what is the best solution for a radio problem, actually ask me for a list of places that sells what they would need to make it work.
My solution? have all calls screened, and the tech (me), simply will not field calls.
In this economy, every dollar counts, having someone take up my off time, when I can be making money, with something that is nothing but trouble?
I agree, I would be upset over something like this also, but, my reputation is worth a lot more than the few dollars, live and learn.

And, it is against the law to change out the computer in an automobile.
Remember supershops, the hop-up speed stores that were nationwide, now no longer in business?.
They had sold a "superchip" for the GM D-link K and later series.
Yes, it did what it said it would, by giving greater priority to speed, and whatever it takes to get there, but with one tiny little flaw, with the ABS.

[mancow]

All I'm saying is that you should do the job you are asked to do. Don't corrupt anything or other silly S***. Just do what you are paid to do and be done.


mancow

[ricciticcitembo]

Yeah, I agree with that too. Why Butcher the customers radio ?
Or "corrupt" the codeplug so It can't easily be read by someone else.

If you have to resort to that, just to "protect yourself" from other
people "stealing your codeplug ideas" then that would be the same
to use RKG's term "Doubious" thing as the Car repair shop putting
in their own brand of computer so you'd have to get serviced by
them only.

Both practices are immoral, illegal, stupid, and silly.

However to the matter at hand here, What Jack said of people not
wanting to pay you because "all you did was something with the
computer" is getting all too common these days.

Some people are so "dimly lit" that not only do they themselves
not have any bright ideas, but actually "Paying" someone for
something that they merely "Thought" of, is a completely Taboo,
Foreign idea.

So obviously the Customer here feels this way, and doesn't wan't
to pay your "Way too high rates" for simply reprogramming his
repeater. As far as he's coincerned, you didn't "sell" him anything.
No new hardware? then no pay. Thats how stupid people think.

The basic trick in business is to just promise that you can fix it
(without for sure even knowing what the problem Really is) for
a price, and discuss payment FIRST, if it is your intention to get
paid for your work, not LATER

Especially if it is a five minute fix.

Just because you are Talented and knowlegeable in Computers /
Electronics and can fix something in five minutes does NOT
mean that you can't charge money for it. But if you didn't discuss
payment arrangements fiirst then your out of luck for sure.

People who reprogram Telephone Systems like the Lucent, Avaya
Mitel, Toshiba etc... Often have a Minimum of charge of $300 US
Dollars or so just to come out there and look at it. Programming
Phone Automated Systems is Very Technical and Not intuitive,
and henceforth Very Expensive. If everybody could do it, then
they wouldn't need specialists. Even the Dealers need them.

But to put in a "Code" or "Password" in the system just because
you were the one who "Sold" it or "Programmed " it would be WRONG.

And if it was like a Fourtune 500 company or the likes thereof,
then rest assured you'd be in some trouble, if you were asked to
remove said "code" and you did not. You could REALLY be in
trouble. So what you do out i"in the sticks" or to non-suspecting
private businesses or "users" of your "Repeater system" by
Confounding the radios codeplug to protect your "Genious intellect"
again, you COULD be held responsible for that should someone
"who doesn't like to be "F-ed" with decide to take legal action.
Confounding/corrupting your OWN radios on your OWN systems
is OK of course, I just wanted to malke it clear that it is Not OK to
do that to a paying customer in most cases. Or to "reverse" your
"changes" or Deprogram the customers unit because he has it,
and you didn't get paid.

Well I guess I beat this topic to death by now.

[RKG]

Jeekers, did I say "doubious?"

I once had a guy come to me with a legal problem. I was able to solve his problem with a single phone call, and I sent him a bill for $100. (This was a long time ago.)

He called about the bill. "How long were you on the phone," he asked? "About 5 minutes, " I replied. "Wow, he said, that means you're charging me over $1,000 an hour, and don't you think that's a bit much, " he asked?

"Nope," I said," I only charged you for a quarter of an hour (our minimum billing unit at the time), which was $25. The other $75 was for knowing how to deal with the problem with a single phone call, and saving you a lot of money that you'd have spent if you went to someone else."

Guy paid the bill by return mail.

[OX]

I have this posted in my cubicle:

"Customers should do business with me because they want to not have to"

If you have to do shady things to keep customers then they will leave. Treat them with respect, integrity and fair.

[Big Blue TO/\/\]

I used to do business with a shop that went out of their way to give you or get ordered for you ANY cable, RSS, or accessory needed so you could do your own programming.
A} you'd screw it up and bring it in
B} they were busy, it lightened the load, and charging for programming will cost you business
C} You came back to them since they gave you something, or helped them out so much (Bank Toaster theory)

I remember sitting at their programming computer, when the newer Icom radio came out (forget the name, but it has the 3 line bigger display, was their first that would ENCODE a 2/5 tone, had over a hunnerd channels, groups (not trunking) etc)
I was the first buyer. They gave me the cable and 'ware, and let me screw with it there on their machine, and we all learned from it.

I realize we have strayed far from the topic, but I am replying to the strayed part. I wholly see where the original poster is coming from, been there myself. I wonder all the time about intellectual property, but the big ole' fart aside (LMAO) you won't remember even why you were mad at this guy a while from now, and you can say you weren't an idiot, HE was in dealing with it how he did.

Later.

[mavericknet]

I use a single password for all CDM radios I own/service (stupid I know). I was doing service for my ambulance, I pissed off some people who made it into power, they went over budget and against bidding regulations to exclude me from a contract for the upfit of a car. Low and behold, they still want/need a new radio for the car. I had a "gentleman's" agreement. They buy there radios from me, I do all service for free (I am a member of this service).

So they went $8,000 over budget on the car, and then nickle-and-dimed the radio for a $40 difference. No problem, giving work to a lower bidder makes sense (if the radio didn't come included with my bid for $500 under budget). So I get a frantic voicemail from one of this little group, I must call hiim immediatly and tell him the password for the CDM radio. It seems there was a $50 charge for programming the radio if they didn't supply the codeplug, they figured just drive on in and let the dealer copy it out of his truck radio. Now for safety sake, I password every radio I've got, with the same code.

I refused to give him the password (this would, of course, open access not only to a public saftey radio to some shop I hadn't even heard of, but to my own equipment as well). So now here's the question, do they have the right to demand my service code?

I've never had a written contract with them, the only thing in writing they have is the invoice for the radios (which are now past warrany). I figure not, it was my labor that created the functional codeplug, in addition, the radio is still functional. If they wish to use a diffrent dealer they can simple to a code dump to replace it (their cost of course). So what do you guys think?

(PS, I can assure you I did not start this little debacle, they were badmouthing my character, and the stature of my business for months prior to them coming to influential positions of power... so my concious is free letting them deal with the radio problem and telling them to go scratch)

[kcbooboo]

If it were me, I'd offer to go to the radio, access the codeplug with your old password, then change it to a new one and give them THAT password. This should protect your other installations yet give them the ability to modify just that radio. Any other radios will still be protected by your original password. If they need other radios modified, do it again, but make them all different ! Keep a record for yourself just incase.

Motorola might claim intellectual property for the contents of the codeplug, but maybe that doesn't cover YOUR password and subsequent programming effort.

Bob M.

[bernie]

My two bits worth:
Yes, I have seen radios 'Pass Word" protected.
It is not too difficult to eventually figure out what is in the CP.

If the radio is on your trunking system is one thing, however if it is on some ones private system, and the CP is modified to protect your future profits, the customer might get a little upset.
I have seen a major customer lost over this issue.
Not mine, I was just an interested observer.

There are certain customers that will steal what ever they can, take every advantage, and cheat like crazy.

My advice is to cut your losses and run. It is not worth the personal grief of attempting to collect. You will pay much more in the end by having lost sleep.

Always give a minimum estimate, and do not let the customer observe a fast repair.
Avoid such people in the future..

rOF has it right..

[mr.syntrx]

It is not too difficult to eventually figure out what is in the CP.

Yep. On a conventional radio, it's dead easy (but tedious) for anyone with a frequency counter and a scanner that can detect DPL/PL tones.

[radio-link]

It is not too difficult to eventually figure out what is in the CP.

Yep. On a conventional radio, it's dead easy (but tedious) for anyone with a frequency counter and a scanner that can detect DPL/PL tones.

Here in germany usually 5-tone signalling is used, often with gimmicks and features being not available off the shelf with a standard codeplug. It is really annoying when someone else just loads all my years of fiddling to get a proper and neat codeplug from a radio. Anyway, there has only been one single customer who got the radios PW protected. He is known as an a**hole, and he needed a really difficult codeplug. One day another company called me to give out the PW. I simply said "no" and told him to do his homework on his own, from the feature documentation we gave together with the radio. I never have heard again from the other company, but the customer came back to us; the other guy simply was not able to do the job :-)