How do "affiliate on PTT" radios still get inhibit

Fuel4300 · Post by **Fuel4300** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:15 pm

With all the recent discussing and paranoia about trunk system information and system keys aside I am wondering how can a system administrator inhibit or "zap" your radio if it has never keyed into the system.

I have heard of personally or read about on the board more than a few cases where some one was using a radio to monitor a system, had everything programmed so as to never affiliate or even had the mic disconnected, and yet they still have their radio zapped.

How does this happen?

Can a system administrator inhibit all invalid id's even if the radio has never been in the system?

One instance the individual changed the id frequently on top of having all of the "affiliate on ptt" setting just in case and had never keyed up on the system and still had their radio inhibited.

Obviously, no one has the right to be accessing a system they do not have permission to and IP and whatnot is an entirely separate discussion. I am curious as to how the system detects and inhibits a radio if it does not know the radio exists on the system.

Mike

Post by **wavetar** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:05 am

Fuel4300 wrote:
Can a system administrator inhibit all invalid id's even if the radio has never been in the system?

Mike

Absolutely. They can set it to to inhibit any ID they wish using utilities such as SIP or SystemWatch, regardless of whether the Central Site Controller has it in it's database. It's not general practice to do so, but with the rise in TRS 'hacking', it's becoming more common.

Todd

Post by **xmo** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:07 am

As Todd says, the System Administrator can send a kill command to any radio, affiliated or not, and even if it does not acknowledge a ping [as in you have physically disabled the transmitter]

Additionally, without going into detail, Motorola has available utility software for Smartzone systems that 'looks for' duplicate ID's and other unauthorized users.

Just because you have your unit set to affiliate only on PTT and have no mic, does not mean it won't be found. It's interesting to observe a SystemWatch on a Smartzone system. You will see a lot of traffic of the type" "Fixed end request unit to affiliate". In other words, your unit could affiliate on command from the Zone Controller and once so identified - become a target for the System Administrator to kill it.

The best advice as always is- either be authorized on the system or buy a scanner.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:10 am

On the practical side, there are 65,000 possible UserIDs. The system would have to send an inhibit signal to every ID not assigned to a valid user, and it would have to do so during the workday hours (when the bootleg receivers are on and listening), not during the dark overnight hours. This could take a lot of OSW time.

Fuel4300 · Post by **Fuel4300** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:57 am

All of the instances that I have heard have been astro mobiles or portables. I would imagine an MTS2000 would act similarly but what about something a little more rudimentary like a maxtrac 888 or an MTX8000? Can they still be inhibited?

Mike

radiokid · Post by **radiokid** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:31 am

I agree with XMO, Buy a Scanner, because you can be found and shut off. A 800 Spectra cost atleast $300, then you have program it. A new digital scanner that will do EDACS, LTR, and all Motorola trunking cost $500. The Scanner doesn't get detected.

I think on the Maxtrac and MTX8000 following the system could be seen and shut off, but XMO would know for sure.

Radio Kid

Fuel4300 · Post by **Fuel4300** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:51 pm

I was under the impression that the system had to be aware of your radio in order for it to be inhibited.

So what you are saying is that the system can send a kill command to a specific ID and if this happens to be the id you are using your radio will be inhibited regardless of whether or not it had ever affiliated with the system?

Mike

Post by **wavetar** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:04 pm

Fuel4300 wrote:

So what you are saying is that the system can send a kill command to a specific ID and if this happens to be the id you are using your radio will be inhibited regardless of whether or not it had ever affiliated with the system?

Mike

Exactly. The fact a big deal is made out of keeping your radio from transmitting an ID is that it just allows them to 'bulls-eye' your unit immediately, as opposed to taking shots in the dark.

Todd

Post by **batdude** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:27 pm

i am going to toss this bone out there, which really only applies to a 3600bps SMARTNET programmed (vice SMARTZONE - different beast) radios...

in the trunking configuration screens, there are options with SMARTNET trunking to DISABLE "RADIO TRACE" and "REMOTE INHIBIT"

it always seemed to me that if these features were indeed disabled that any commands from the system to the radio would be ignored.

of course (as written above) - if you radio is programmed to follow a 3600bps SMARTZONE system - there is no way to prevent the radio from affiliating. *IF* your system is a Simulcast SMARTZONE - then there is no point in programming your radio onto the SMARTZONE since all traffic from ALL SITES is transmitted ALL THE TIME. Smartnet programming will not miss any traffic.

in ancient times, Elroy wrote about programming channels past the channel selector switch (i.e. 17/18 etc) and strapping both sides of the A/B concentric switch to "TX DISABLE" to prevent the affiliation - but i personally have never tried this...and this tip was written before the era of XTS 5000's and 9600bps trunking (astro saber era)

if the system in question is 9600bps, all bets are off on the above. your radio WILL affiliate. <period>

bottom line here:

spectra = 10 channel scanner
bearcat = 500 (?) channel scanner

spectra progarmmed onto system (w/o authorization) = jail
bearcat = no jail

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:00 pm

If only the scanner folks could manage to produce a scanner with good squelch response and have decent audio that isn't weak, tinny or scratchy.

Even the latest digital scanners are barely audible or have terrible audio quality in analog or digital mode.

Zero dbm · Post by **Zero dbm** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:29 am

apco25 wrote:If only the scanner folks could manage to produce a scanner with good squelch response and have decent audio that isn't weak, tinny or scratchy.

Even the latest digital scanners are barely audible or have terrible audio quality in analog or digital mode.

Agreed. Or how about the "look" of the Bearcat? I mean come on! I would be embarrased to wear it. Big circa 1950 speaker grille and small sound.

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:09 pm

That new BCD396T should turn some heads. Will have two-tone decode as well. The biggest thing about it is that its not the size of a 2-liter coke.

Hoseman292 · Post by **Hoseman292** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:16 pm

chipjumper wrote:That new BCD396T should turn some heads. Will have two-tone decode as well. The biggest thing about it is that its not the size of a 2-liter coke.

The BCD396T is a HOT looking radio. The two-tone decode option is something I've been waiting on for a long time in synthesized receivers. Where I'm confused is that I always thought it was illegal to decode any type of paging data regardless of the format (FLEX,POCSAG, GOLAY, QCII, etc).

I read about the BCD396T in Uniden's press release and immediately I thought that it was a good idea but probably wouldn't happen. Any thoughts on this fellas?

Tim - N3WIR
Silver Spring MD

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:06 am

I picked up a half dead MTS2000 very recently that doesn't produce a single hint of RF (not that I care why, because I got it dirt cheap). Seeing as I only scan 5 different frequencies, it makes a nice scanner

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:44 am

Hoseman292 wrote:The BCD396T is a HOT looking radio. The two-tone decode option is something I've been waiting on for a long time in synthesized receivers. Where I'm confused is that I always thought it was illegal to decode any type of paging data regardless of the format (FLEX,POCSAG, GOLAY, QCII, etc).

I read about the BCD396T in Uniden's press release and immediately I thought that it was a good idea but probably wouldn't happen. Any thoughts on this fellas?

Tim - N3WIR
Silver Spring MD

A "hot-looking" radio? Yawn. Why does Uniden want to make stuff that looks futuristic? Get a clue - build things that look somewhat similar to real radios. See all those hard knobs and switches on top? We like those. Everything on soft buttons sucks.

I suppose you could make a case to say decoding QC2 is illegal... of course, that would make your ears an interception device and illegal to possess! QC2 is really signalling, not paging, IMO.

kb3jkp · Post by **kb3jkp** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:06 pm

OK OK... let me throw THIS in there.... if you have a radio that is MONITORING.. and the SYSTEM requests the radio that YOU HAVE (ID 1234567) to affiliate.......and then KILLS your radio.. I would THINK that you'd have a nice case against the agency that did it.. because YOU did not transmit.. the agency in question REQUESTED that you (the radio) transmit.. and the radio replied to that request.. it would seem to me that they would be in effect "authorizing" you to transmit..being that they themselves requested the affiliation,and the radio did not affiliate by itselft.. and it was a "random" request..this of course assuming the radio is NOT auto affiliating.. and the controller sends a request that ALL units need to affiliate.... kinda like the 5th amendment... it would be similar to a police officer DEMANDING to know why you're walking down the street,then take your car keys.. because you MIGHT get drunk later.. just my .02 cents...

Victor Xray · Post by **Victor Xray** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:38 pm

Totally wrong. You'd be laughed out of any court in America.

If you have an illegal radio on a private system, it's illegal. Whether or not YOU manually caused the radio to transmit or affiliate makes no difference. How did you program your radio? Did you use an unauthorized copy of the system key (illegal) or did you use lab software (illegal)?

Also, if you're walking down a PUBLIC street, then true you can't be harrassed for no reason. But if you're walking down Motorola's street, which is PRIVATE, they can haul your ass off to jail, strip you of all your radio and computer posessions, and rape your wallet forever.

Post by **wavetar** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:14 am

Not to mention the radio can be inhibited without ever affiliating with the system. The admins wouldn't know you got hit, but the radio will still be dead.

Todd

Fuel4300 · Post by **Fuel4300** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:09 am

wavetar wrote:Not to mention the radio can be inhibited without ever affiliating with the system. The admins wouldn't know you got hit, but the radio will still be dead.

Todd

That was the basis for my original question.

A separate, but related, issue is the one revolving around system keys. Obviously a radio programmed on a system without authorization is illegal and is almost akin to trespassing, however, it has been said more than a few times on the board that the possession of a system key is a violation of intellectual property laws. How could this be the case if all you need is the system id and the proper primer on how to make a system key file based on it. Both of these items are public information.

I have heard there exists somewhere a system key generator utility and possession of this software is clearly a violation of IP law considering it is Motorola proprietary but how is it a violation if you were to make the key yourself manually?

Mike

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:34 pm

If you did it by yourself without referring to a real system key or the software that generates it, there is no violation.

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:37 pm

id bet that wouldnt stop them from nailing you on the DMCA...

reverse engineering had to occur at some point to figure out how to manually hex a syskey.

Lord knows, i dont have the cash to spend on legal fees against motorola arguing that point.

better hope your CPS was purchased from them too...

it would be an interesting case for sure though.

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:36 am

Legally, creating a system key from scratch without having access to the real thing to do the reverse engineering wouldn't be any less legal than the reverse engineering of the IBM PC's BIOS way back when.

Post by **batdude** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:45 am

they don't care HOW you access the system....or if your radio transmits RF or not. the radio is illegally programmed - and the symantics of how the key was generated is not relevant. bottom line here is that the system key is designed to prevent unauthorized radios from being placed on the system.

that's like asking how the hacker broke into the computer system - the point is MOOT.

the bottom line is that this practice of placing ghost radios onto law enforcement/public safety trunks is considered (among other things) computer network hacking/trespass.

i would add here that this discussion, while somewhat related to the nick deluca whore radio scheme is different.

if you get nailed doing this stuff - you WILL be arrested and you will be charged with a CRIME.

all the deluca owners out there MIGHT end up in civil court - but they certainly aren't going to be arrested or charged with a crime.

BIG difference.

buy a scanner.

doug

ScannerDan · Post by **ScannerDan** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:09 pm

Victor Xray wrote: If you have an illegal radio on a private system, it's illegal.

So what would make a lawfully owned radio illegal? The fact that it has frequencies programmed into it or that it has a system key? Would an Astro Saber say programmed to monitor LAPD be illegal with just the proper frequencies programmed or once the proper NAC is programmed would it be illegal. If it’s illegal how is it illegal? I’ve been reading so much about illegal radios and I’m just wondering what makes them illegal. I guess e-bay should stop selling all those illegal radios.

Post by **batdude** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:42 pm

So what would make a lawfully owned radio illegal?

the information in the radio (codeplug)

The fact that it has frequencies programmed into it or that it has a system key?

again, if a system key was illegally used to program the radio onto a trunking system, you are right back at computer network trespass. you do not need a system key to program the trunking system frequency information. you need it to select the system ID and manipulate the trunking personality screens.

Would an Astro Saber say programmed to monitor LAPD be illegal with just the proper frequencies programmed or once the proper NAC is programmed would it be illegal.

this is a symantics question. there is no confidential/intellectual property required to program in a conventional channel or NAC. so you are talking about a whole different ball game. If they suspected you of interfering with a LAPD channel - you can bet your ass you are going to be arrested....and charged. How many of those astro sabers out in LA (the "illegal" ones...lol) are actually programmed with honest to god authorized copies of RSS/CPS?....hmmm.

If it’s illegal how is it illegal? I’ve been reading so much about illegal radios and I’m just wondering what makes them illegal. I guess e-bay should stop selling all those illegal radios.

the word illegal is tossed around too much. i like the term "illegitimate" to describe the nick radios. i use the term "unauthorized" to describe a radio on a trunking system that shouldn't be there.

to me, an "illegal" radio is one that is stolen... but (to me) an illegal one *OR* an "unauthorized" one should get you locked up.

buy a scanner.

(as you can tell, i am not a fan of joe the rag man toting around an xts 3000 on his local PD trunk... mainly b/c too many idiots out there can't program the radio correctly and could potentially interfere with the operation of the system....in which case you should be shot on sight)

doug

Victor Xray · Post by **Victor Xray** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:30 pm

Good points Doug.

Hopefully everyone gets why having an unauthorized trunked radio programmed on a private system is illegal (software, system key). So for conventional scanning, what's the difference between a Uniden scanner and an Astro Saber? The transmitter and FCC type certification.

Read CFR47 Part 90 Section 90.403. Here's a summary of (a)1-3:
Licensees must assure that transceivers are programmed for permissible purposes, in a permissible manner, and by persons with authority to use and operate such equipment.

Irregardless of if you legally own your Astro Saber and have the receipt to show for it -- YOU ARE NOT authorized to program that radio unless you own the license or are authorized by the licensee for the frequency you are programming it on. That includes programming it just for the receive frequencies.

eBay is not selling illegal radios (assuming the seller was smart enough to completely blank the codeplug and the radio is not hot). It's the programming and use of that radio determines if it is illegal, or unauthorized.

d119 · Post by **d119** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:41 pm

Victor Xray wrote: Irregardless of if you legally own your Astro Saber and have the receipt to show for it -- YOU ARE NOT authorized to program that radio unless you own the license or are authorized by the licensee for the frequency you are programming it on. That includes programming it just for the receive frequencies.

PUH-LEEZ. You know not of what you speak, and just succeeded in making yourself look like an idiot.

So the FCC licenses receivers now, eh? Last I checked, licenses were for TRANSMITTERS ONLY.

OK. If you say so. I think if you were monitoring a conventional system and had strictly receive-only frequencies programmed in the radio, there isn't anything anyone can do about it. So long as you aren't decrypting encrypted traffic, etc.

VX, I suggest you take a step back and check yourself. I can program ANYTHING I want into my radio in receive-only mode, conventional, in-the-clear, and listen to it. There's NOTHING illegal about that. I don't know what country you live in, but evidently you have no legal knowledge of what you speak of.

Stop steering people in the wrong direction and providing misinformation.

If what you say above were true, it would imply that ANYONE with a SCANNER was breaking the law. What's the difference between an Astro Saber programmed with NO transmit frequencies, and a scanner? NOTHING! Point made.

As far as trunking goes, I don't know anything about it, so I can't contribute to that side of it.

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:22 am

CFR 47 Part 90 applies to "land mobile radio", not scanners, so you just made yourself look like an idiot...

Victor Xray was not talking about a scanner, he was talking about an Astro Saber. It's even in the quote that you quoted him on...

Furthermore, this thread does deal directly with trunked radio systems and radios affiliating, i.e. TRANSMITTING on a "system".

Here's some advice, don't flame people unless you know what you're talking about, hence:

d119 wrote:As far as trunking goes, I don't know anything about it, so I can't contribute to that side of it.

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:16 am

batdude wrote: mainly b/c too many idiots out there can't program the radio correctly and could potentially interfere with the operation of the system....in which case you should be shot on sight)

doug

That is correct and I have had almost a dozen unauthorized affiliations over the past 2 weeks and now those radios are bricks.

I have been quiet on this topic, but Doug's comment made me want to state that illegal programming is happening and I have the ability to go back over 4 months looking for illegal activity. I won't say how I do it, but to date I have turned over 50 radios to bricks. Now I'm sure those who have archives of their codeplugs have turned them back on hopefull to remove my system as I will do it to them again if they continue this illegal activity....

As a number of members of this board have stated in the past....GO BUY A SCANNER!!!

boomboy64 · Post by **boomboy64** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:47 am

d119 wrote:
Victor Xray wrote: So the FCC licenses receivers now, eh? Last I checked, licenses were for TRANSMITTERS ONLY.

And to my knowledge, if the T & R are not physically separable and it can retain the capability to transmit, it's still seen as a transmitter? My old Heathkit was great before I got my license because I could physically put away the transmitter and keep the receiver, but try doing that with an astro saber...

/echo on/ Get a Scanner... /Echo off/

Boomboy64

Hoseman292 · Post by **Hoseman292** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:44 pm

I'm assigned to a hazmat team in my fire department. There must be 30 XTS portable radios at my station and I can take a radio at any time.

I've owned a Uniden 796D for a good while now and can honestly say that I prefer having it over the departments' XTS3000. The sound isn't quite as good but I can program any system I want with just a few keystrokes and scan any talkgroup I want. I don't understand whats the big deal about having a radio capable of transmitting. I guess that's what it boils down to.

Anyway... it's bedtime and the taxpayers are paying me to sleep now.

Night fellas,

Tim

Fuel4300 · Post by **Fuel4300** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:14 pm

Hoseman292 wrote:I'm assigned to a hazmat team in my fire department. There must be 30 XTS portable radios at my station and I can take a radio at any time.

I've owned a Uniden 796D for a good while now and can honestly say that I prefer having it over the departments' XTS3000. The sound isn't quite as good but I can program any system I want with just a few keystrokes and scan any talkgroup I want. I don't understand whats the big deal about having a radio capable of transmitting. I guess that's what it boils down to.

Anyway... it's bedtime and the taxpayers are paying me to sleep now.

Night fellas,

Tim

The difference is that when you are using a portable supplied by your station you are an authorized user, using a department issued radio with legitimate tags and a radio id that was assigned by the system administrator using a properly obtained system key and licensed software.

The issue is not only having the ability to transmit but also how the radio got to be on the system in the first place.

Microwave Mike · Post by **Microwave Mike** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:43 pm

Look. The best thing is to buy and use a " Digital " scanner. If you must
use a real radio have someone remove the transmitter PA section.
This can be done by removing the blocking caps between the PA stages.
The output form the VCO and the input to the PA brick can be lifted, the caps left in place on the output side, "tombstoning the cap ", to be replaced if needed. The radio will not make a peep from the transmitter.

But I would say the best thing to do is BUY A SCANNER!!

MM

motorola_otaku · Post by **motorola_otaku** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:20 am

I guess it depends on where you live. Here in the Houston area, we've got wreckers tooling around with multiple 800 Spectras and MTS2000s scanning trunk. The officers on the street know this and for the most part could care less. For those of you who don't know, the city of Houston and unincorporated Harris County don't have callout rotations for their wreckers-officer says "need a wrecker" on the radio and whoever gets there first gets the tow. It's a mess, but that's another story. As far as programming goes, I've only ever heard of one person get busted and he was programming radios for Smartzone affiliation and roaming.

I'll have to snap some pics of some of the rigs and post them to the Lounge sometime-we're talking 11+ transit antennas in a row on the roof. It's insane.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:04 pm

Why doesn't the wrecker club simply use a good P25 scanner, such as the RS PRO-96? It would be 1,000 times easier to set up and use such a modern scanner, as opposed to a two-way trunked radio, such as a Spectra.

I'm convinced that these sort of folks using trunked radios for applications as you have described (e.g., wreckers) are either 1. big fat blowhards who like carrying such radios so as to make others think they are some sort of "official person;" or 2. they are ignorant of the new family of trunked scanners that include alpha display of ID's etc. so as to make them equal to, or better than, the commercial trunked radios for monitoring purposes. I think most (if not all) of them fall into the first category.

larry

AEC · Post by **AEC** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:20 pm

Last I checked, transmitting equipment falls under the jurisdiction of the FCC alone, and not the local PD.
The only thing the local nzis can do, is take the radio and check to see if it's stolen, and if not, return it to the owner.
Fines can only be handed out for this breach(assumed or real) by the FCC alone, as this falls outside the perviews of any law enfarcement(yes, I spelled it that way) department.

The only raido the local keystones can do anything about, is CB noise problems from those that abuse that band, and that is all.

I had a 'radio' problem a few years ago, and the local nazis assumed they had the power to regulate the use of radio......one court date later, I laugh at them and still have everything they took with a lot of extra folding money in my wallet to boot!

An FCC field engineer would have to witness the act, then a case would have to be made against that person, and federal charges filed for 'illegal' radio usage, and finally, a visit to the owner's home for a 'visit'.

Check FCC law, there are no provisions allowed for any law enforcement agency aside from the FCC, to reguate the use of land mobile, trunked and amateur radio or marine/aviation radio services, that is not their authority.

Network access 'may' fall under some broad interpretation of computer crimes, but I highly doubt it would as a site controller is 'not' a computer, hence the name 'controller', which indicates the true function.
System keys would also be a hard press issue to prosecute over, since these are not owned by the system operators, but licensed by a disparate company, it would fall to them to pursue the matter further in a court case, and I doubt that would get far as reverse engineering IS a legal action by everybody and not a 'trade secret'. Since syskeys are also something that (to take a snip from the patent office) any reasonable person, engaged in the field of radio system control could not come up with on his/her own, it is not a 'new or novel' idea, and therefore, not a patentable process/idea.

Pushing the envelope for the sheer fact of making a case, or precedent would waste more tax dollars than it is worth and would halt nothing but a lone individual playing games, and since we all know hams in general are cheap, they would get no 'blood money' for the effort.

Live long and prosper......Spock out!

Post by **alex** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:49 am

I would consider watching a court case in wisconsin (I believe) where a few people are being prosecuted under computer crime clauses for having radios on a trunked system there.

I think if you search around the board, you should find more specific notices.

-Alex

1 Adam 12 · Post by **1 Adam 12** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:59 am

[quote="AEC"]Last I checked, transmitting equipment falls under the jurisdiction of the FCC alone, and not the local PD.
The only thing the local nzis can do, is take the radio and check to see if it's stolen, and if not, return it to the owner.
Fines can only be handed out for this breach(assumed or real) by the FCC alone, as this falls outside the perviews of any law enfarcement(yes, I spelled it that way) department.

The only raido the local keystones can do anything about, is CB noise problems from those that abuse that band, and that is all.

An FCC field engineer would have to witness the act, then a case would have to be made against that person, and federal charges filed for 'illegal' radio usage, and finally, a visit to the owner's home for a 'visit'.

Check FCC law, there are no provisions allowed for any law enforcement agency aside from the FCC, to reguate the use of land mobile, trunked and amateur radio or marine/aviation radio services, that is not their authority. [quote]

WOW... Well you better check again... because in many states, they do have the ability to arrest you...seize equipment and prosecute you.
First off... many ( please check your own state) states have a statute which prohibits transmitting or interefering with frequencies assigned to government entities.. Newsflash... if your portable that is used for monitoring public safet affiliates ( not going even go thru the how, even with PTT disable, it will attempt to affiliate or...pay attention.... in response to a poll from the system administrator in which case your radio will respond.... ) then you have just transmitted / interfered.. period.
Since you are not an authorized user and the control channel that your radio transmitted on is licensed to a govt entity, you have transmitted, thus viloating that statute... its not that hard to prove these case. Also your local system administrator can testify to ... (1) you are not an authorized user... I'd also use him to show that the radio we took from you does affiliate, can show this reports on the system and even do it live in court. Here your honor...watch the screen .. see the number that just popped up.. its from this radio, watch as I switch to another talkgroup.. there it is again your honor... and here is a copy of the radio ID data pulled directly from the radio in question... How does that number pop up ?..well your honor the radio transmits on one of the licensed control channels licensed to agency X
of which defendant A has no authority to transmit on....

Anyway getting back to the states, they also in some states have the authority to go after pirate broadcast stations. Most commonly found on AM and FM... Florida has it in place now... and at least two other states are in the works.. Amateur radio during emergencies and when acting in conjunction with government is covered and can be enforced by local agencies in some areas.. And you don't even have an inkling about the computer/telephone...crimes. You'd be surpised at how much they actually encompass when you truly understand them. If you have a competent agent/investigator he will be able to put a case together against you that will hold up..... Many states are enacting legislation that mirrors Federal statutes, due to the fact that post 9/11 there has been a back-log and even aviodance of taking some types of cases, so the states have gone ahead and addressed them, whether you like it or feel they have the right to, is another issue.. As to needing an FCC engineer, nope... a local system adminstrator, engineer or licensed FCC service person is more than capable of being put on the stand to prove a case. Just a little advice... be aware

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:34 am

Bottomline: If you ain't no stinkin' authorized user, get yourself a scanner, such as the Radio Shack PRO-96, and stop trying to use your wannabe police radio! You'll find that this less than $500 scanner sounds every bit as good as an XTS-5000, and you won't get your butt in legal hotwater.

radio-link · Post by **radio-link** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:40 am

Hoseman292 wrote:I don't understand whats the big deal about having a radio capable of transmitting. I guess that's what it boils down to.

Night fellas,

Tim

The big deal is to have loud and clear audio in this box what is dangling from the belt, and a radio that does not explode into parts when accidentally dropped.

Would Motorola ever decide to produce a scanner in a Saber or MTS2000 or XTS housing, with the receiver technology of such a radio, there would be a market for...but of course the users od the real radios would start complaining that Mot starts supporting the unauthorized listening, so I do not really see such a beast in the future.

Lucky germany, we still have no trunking for police, so a normal VHF radio does the job excellent.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:47 pm

Stick with a PRO-96 if you are a wannabe, and you are not authorized to be on the system. Otherwise, you're gunna' get carted off to jail.

radio-link · Post by **radio-link** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:03 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:Stick with a PRO-96 if you are a wannabe, and you are not authorized to be on the system. Otherwise, you're gunna' get carted off to jail.

It is not only about trunking, the same applies to conventional operation in FM or APCO25. After being a ham radio operator for years finally I discovered the "real" radios; from this on I almost stopped using crappy ham gear or scanners, because they just do not fit my needs.

When I want to listen to whatever, and let it be trunking, as far as my radio does not transmit on the system I can see no difference in using a scanner or a real radio.

By the way, in germany the days are gone, when using a unlicensed radio brings you into jail. It is a so called "Ordnungswidrigkeit", similar to speeding, and of course you have to pay huge $$ to the radiofinding guys for chasing you, but thats it. Expensive, annoying, but nothing more.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:37 pm

But the entire point is that when you use a "real" radio and it attempts to affiliate on a trunked system, it Transmits. It is not a passive device.

radio-link · Post by **radio-link** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:42 am

ASTROMODAT wrote:But the entire point is that when you use a "real" radio and it attempts to affiliate on a trunked system, it Transmits. It is not a passive device.

Yes, of course, I see the point. But it should be possible to program another repeater shift, or to disable the transmitter with the alignment software to virtually no output power, and all should be just fine.

It is similar here with mpt trunking, usually the radios affiliate, but as described above it is possible to get one to "recive only". Anyway the radios are not stunned here, when misuse is being watched then simply the subscriber number can be tied to the ESN, and any not authorized radio can not affiliate.

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:07 am

You can on a VHF/UHF model, but the 800 MHz trunking systems in the States have the rx/tx frequencies fixed in the radio. Once you program it, it automatically eneters the TX and RX frequencies. The only way around it is to remove the TX portion of the radio all together.

I've monitored several UHF systems and just leave the TX fields blank. Not a peep out of the radio.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:52 am

I suppose a guy could conceivably modify a Bradley Fighting Vehicle to use as a commuter car to go to/from his workplace. Similar to dropping a commercial radio, I suppose such a vehicle is more durable than the average SUV. But, it is entirely impractical. You seem to be fighting this thing to no end. It is ILLEGAL for an unauthorized user to do what you want to do. Buy a Suburban, and get yourself a Radio Shack or Uniden scanner. The days of the MX-350 are over, and these systems are getting increasingly sophisticated. A modern day scanner, such as a PRO-96, is perfect for civilian monitoring, and it sounds every bit as good as an XTS-5000.

By the way, I dropped an XTS-3000 and the case busted, no different than a scanner would have. It's a myth that a commercial portable radio is more bullet proof to dropping on the ground than a good scanner. COTS electronics are every bit as good, which is why the military is increasingly looking to leverage such. Like a good Motorola radio, my Rolex Submariner is durable. But you know what? If I were to drop my Rolex on a cement sidewalk, it would not fare any better than a $7 Timex. If anything, the Timex would probably take that licking, and keep on tickin.' I would imagine my Rolex would easily sustain $500+ in damage, if nothing else cosmetic damage that Rolex New York would gladly refurb. Try dropping your illegally affiliated XTS-5000 on a cement sidewalk from 4 feet. I guarantee you that you will have plenty of damage, at least cosmetic, and Elgin will hit you for $375 to fix it, if you're lucky. Keep in mind that for that price, you can almost buy a brand new PRO-96.

If you are a police wannabe, then I can understand this reason for struggling and fighting so hard to “justify” an XTS over a PRO-96. It is true that even a 9 year old will spot you as a civvie with your Radio Shack scanner, whereas with that XTS-5000, you might be able to fool some of the kiddies that you are a rent-a-cop, or some such thing. If your end game is to pretend to be a cop, you are correct that a scanner ain't gunna get the job done.

Good luck.

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:29 am

I was just pointing out that UHF/VHF systems can be monitored with affiliation at all.

If you want to listen to 800/900 MHz, get a scanner.

On the other hand, you are safe with UHF/VHF systems.

radio-link · Post by **radio-link** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:21 am

ASTROMODAT wrote:I suppose a guy could conceivably modify a Bradley Fighting Vehicle to use as a commuter car to go to/from his workplace. Similar to dropping a commercial radio, I suppose such a vehicle is more durable than the average SUV. But, it is entirely impractical. You seem to be fighting this thing to no end. It is ILLEGAL for an unauthorized user to do what you want to do. Buy a Suburban, and get yourself a Radio Shack or Uniden scanner. The days of the MX-350 are over, and these systems are getting increasingly sophisticated. A modern day scanner, such as a PRO-96, is perfect for civilian monitoring, and it sounds every bit as good as an XTS-5000.

By the way, I dropped an XTS-3000 and the case busted, no different than a scanner would have. It's a myth that a commercial portable radio is more bullet proof to dropping on the ground than a good scanner. COTS electronics are every bit as good, which is why the military is increasingly looking to leverage such. Like a good Motorola radio, my Rolex Submariner is durable. But you know what? If I were to drop my Rolex on a cement sidewalk, it would not fare any better than a $7 Timex. If anything, the Timex would probably take that licking, and keep on tickin.' I would imagine my Rolex would easily sustain $500+ in damage, if nothing else cosmetic damage that Rolex New York would gladly refurb. Try dropping your illegally affiliated XTS-5000 on a cement sidewalk from 4 feet. I guarantee you that you will have plenty of damage, at least cosmetic, and Elgin will hit you for $375 to fix it, if you're lucky. Keep in mind that for that price, you can almost buy a brand new PRO-96.

If you are a police wannabe, then I can understand this reason for struggling and fighting so hard to “justify” an XTS over a PRO-96. It is true that even a 9 year old will spot you as a civvie with your Radio Shack scanner, whereas with that XTS-5000, you might be able to fool some of the kiddies that you are a rent-a-cop, or some such thing. If your end game is to pretend to be a cop, you are correct that a scanner ain't gunna get the job done.

Good luck.

I just can not accept what you are telling me. I do not want to claim that you do not know what you are talking about, but go to a busy street and compare the audio of a scanner and of a MTS2000 or XTS5000 or Waris. Nothing more to say about this. And your example with the cars or the watches is like comparing apples and oranges. It is just a fact, that a real radio performs in _all_ relevant features way better than an even expensive scanner, just things like reprogramming and searching bands are better with a scanner. Both are OTS, but still the Mot radio is better, believe it or not. The scanner is aimed at the private listener, as a gadget with many funky features and a quality of a walkman or smth. like that, the radio is aimed at the professional user whos life can depend on the working of this radio. And _you_ want to tell me there is no difference??

About listening into conversations that are not intended for you to listen in, in germany there is no difference whether you use a scanner or a real radio. I do not know what this is in the US about, but for germany it is just a simple fact, and you can repeat yourself as often as you want, it does not become true from this.
The funny thing especially for the german laws, until one year ago it was even worde usin a scanner to listen to the police than a real police radio. This came from some strange regulations, that the transmission of the police are not intended for a scanner, but for a police radio. So using the police radio was just using a radio without having a frequency assigned, using the scanner was unauthorized listening, and the fine was much higher. But listening to the police has been illegal and still is, just many people do, and usually nothing happens if you do not do it in the public.

About fixing the thing, I do it myself, I just order the parts via MOL, and that's it. As I know how cheap a waris or even jedi housing is, and how much they charge for a XTS5k housing, I still make no difference in usage because those radios can stand it. Then have a look at my scanner, rarely used, but anyway it looks shitty and used up - from nothing.

And the last thing, if you want to call me a police wannabe, this is just ridiculous, I have to do with the police all day, we set up antennas and inhouse systems for them, and believe me, when you know these guys, you really do not wannabe like one of them (at least in the most cases) :-)

Really no flamewar intended, I just want to say what I think - it is not polite all the time, but at least you can know that I am not lying at you about my thoughts *g* And if you call me an [idiot] for this, just OK for me, maybe I am; at least I admit it *bg*

radio-link · Post by **radio-link** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:33 am

[quote="radio-link And if you call me an [idiot] for this, just OK for me, maybe I am; at least I admit it *bg*[/quote]

Oops, I used a bad word and triggered some filter (and for sure some alarm :-) - dear moderators, I used the bad word against myself, hope, this was OK?! Idiot does it just as well...

And just another thing, most times I use the radio (and not a scanner) because I want to transmit. I am a radio ham, I am licensed to use some commercial frequencies, and when at work, then I am licensed to transmit on the police bands - just the last thing I do not have to use very often.
Still I do not use some japanese ham crap for ham use, and more and more other OMs here in my area come to the same conclusion and switch to Motorolas - can they be wrong?!

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:40 am

The issue of audio quality of a Motorola versus a high end scanner has come up previously on this board, and more than once. Usually folks have commented from a theoretical standpoint, or perhaps from experience years ago. I used to own XTS-3000's (which we traded in to Motorola, and my personal radio was sold on eBay, since it was essentially NIB), and I now own the XTS-5000 (for the past 6 months or so). Accordingly, I can give you my opinion on their audio quality from a true A/B standpoint. I can definitively tell you that the audio quality of IMBE systems on the PRO-96 is absolutely every bit as good as the XTS-5000 (the latter sounding identical to the old XTS-3000). As a matter of fact, with the latest firmware load, I'd say the PRO-96 sounds noticably BETTER than the XTS-5000 on IMBE conversations as the AGC performance of the PRO-96 is much better, and the IMBE recovered audio is much crisper. The ONLY issue is that the audio power level capability of the PRO-96 is not quite as loud as I'd sometimes like it to be, but this is not a major issue, IMHO.

For $500 brand new (and "they" keep saying it's going to soon drop), how can you possibly justify the cost of a legit XTS-5000 (equipped with IMBE) over the PRO-96? You could buy 10 or more PRO-96's for the price of one moderately equipped XTS-5000. When the PRO-96 drops to $250 in price, you could buy 20 of 'em for the price of an XTS-5000. So who cares, anyway, if the PRO-96 may be very slightly less abuse tolerant than an XTS? For the price of an XTS, you could afford to replace your PRO-96 every 6 months, and this way, you could always be on the cutting edge of technology. Keep in mind that in the not too distant future the XTS-5000 will be a boat anchor, as it will not handle Phase II, and you'll be carrying around a really expensive outmoded radio. RS and Uniden will both have Phase II TDMA radios on the market not too long after Phase II is here, equipped with the better sounding Phase II CODEC, for the same $500 new price, way before you will ever replace that old Phase I 5000.

Then again, individual opinions are what make the world interesting, so Enjoy!

How do "affiliate on PTT" radios still get inhibit

How do "affiliate on PTT" radios still get inhibit

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I don't know what the big deal is...

Re: I don't know what the big deal is...

Afilliating radios........................

Re: Afilliating radios........................

Re: I don't know what the big deal is...