Re Banding 800 Mhz radios

FMROB · Post by **FMROB** » Sun May 29, 2005 2:13 pm

Hello,
What radios will be able to be re banded? Such as MTX, MCS, XTS, Spectra etc.

What is involved in re banding these portables, just out of curiosity. Is it a flash upgrade, or changing the freq. operating range of the radio.

Thanks, Rob

Post by **xmo** » Sun May 29, 2005 6:10 pm

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=43544

FMROB · Post by **FMROB** » Sun May 29, 2005 6:41 pm

Yup, I read that thread.

What I am looking for is the more specific info, such as what is going to happen to radios already in the field. And what the exact fix is going to be for these radios, if any.

The locals here had a meeting which I couldn't attend, so I am playing catch up. My boss was there, but the only thing he was going for was the free lunch..

radiokid · Post by **radiokid** » Sun May 29, 2005 6:54 pm

From what we know so far. Flash Upgrade for some or replacement for some. For those that are being replaced, the crusher they go. Brought a tear to my eye.
Radio Kid

Post by **xmo** » Sun May 29, 2005 7:15 pm

The first post in the other thread contains the link to the Motorola rebanding website.

When you go there they have a presentation titled: "Impact of Rebanding to Motorola Systems and Subscribers"

That should pretty well answer your questions and if not - there is a place there for you to send your question to the Motorola rebanding team by email.

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Mon May 30, 2005 3:21 am

Go to page 23 and 24 of this webpage pdf....

http://www.motorola.com/cgiss/800reband ... 7_2005.pdf

It will have exactly what your looking for.

FMROB · Post by **FMROB** » Mon May 30, 2005 12:31 pm

Mark, That is exactly what I was looking for. I feel a little better knowing that most of the models that we run can stay in service. The other Depts. don't get much where I work, so if they disappear they may never come back.. Thanks, Rob

redbeard · Post by **redbeard** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:05 am

All the privately owned 800 gear that can't be converted will go in to service to jam Nextel I imagine.

At the least I expect floods of good parts for other bands like cases, heads, displays, etc. Sell your gear now if you expect to get decent money out of it. Assuming of course you're not using it for anything important anyway

Post by **xmo** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:04 am

Don't count on it. We were told that every replaced radio will have to be returned before Nextel will pay for the replacement. All the old ones go to the crusher.

Will · Post by **Will** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:55 pm

Hmm, good place to get your old non-working 800 radios replaced!!

redbeard · Post by **redbeard** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:06 pm

Don't count on it. We were told that every replaced radio will have to be returned before Nextel will pay for the replacement. All the old ones go to the crusher.

Like I said:

All the privately owned 800 gear

If Nextel will buy my personal MTS2000 and give me a new XTS in it's place then i'm all for it but I don't see that happening since it's not a dept. owned radio. It's people like me that i'm expecting to see these floods of parts from, not the crusher-bound rigs but hey stranger things have happened a la the 'Alpha' radios from the fire...

N7OLQ · Post by **N7OLQ** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:21 pm

I have an MTX8000 that I use for monitoring a local SmartZone system (I've programmed it not to TX or affiliate). From reading the Moto documentation on the rebanding, it appears I need to "retune" my radio for rebanding (Category A).
Can anyone tell me if this will require that I obtain new programming software, or is there a way to do it with the software I already have?

Thanks

spectragod · Post by **spectragod** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:40 pm

Re-tune means to flash upgrade the radio, good luck, since a MTX is not flash upgradeable.

SG

N7OLQ wrote:I have an MTX8000 that I use for monitoring a local SmartZone system (I've programmed it not to TX or affiliate). From reading the Moto documentation on the rebanding, it appears I need to "retune" my radio for rebanding (Category A).
Can anyone tell me if this will require that I obtain new programming software, or is there a way to do it with the software I already have?

Thanks

Crimestopper · Post by **Crimestopper** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:48 pm

So do you suggest that we sell any inventory that we may have such as the MTX8000's B3's, B5's and B7's. If so how much time do we have to unload our radios? Do private SMR's have anything to fall onto, when it comes to there region? I'm sitting on 40 MTX800's B7 which is not a lot, but I don't need expensive door stops. What do you suggest? To bad we can't file a class action suit and get new replacments...

Steve

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:10 pm

MTX8000's will be worthless. They cannot be upgraded. There are even some older MTS2000's that cannot be reflashed. There is a whole list of radios on Motorola's 800 rebanding website that are/are not rebandable. (The STX821, Saber SI, Syntor X9000, GTX, etc are going to make nice paperweights soon).

As far as suing, not much chance of recovering anything. Rebanding IS the LAW like it or not. It is GOING to happen. Keep in mind too there were times when one could have filed comments to the FCC. The sad thing is, the ones who really get screwed are the non-PS private wireless users. Nextel was on their game when they pushed their "concensus plan" and thus big money talks and you see what walks.

If you got a c-note for those MTX radios you would be doing good. There are a plethora of MTS2000 800's out there now, many of which CAN be upgraded, being sold at "giveaway" prices. Mainly because reflashing of privately owned radios will be at your OWN expense. If it isn't an agency radio on an inventory, it is your problem.

I would suggest taking a look at the 800 Transition Admin's website for more info.

http://www.800ta.org

spectragod · Post by **spectragod** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:21 am

A lot of the value of the radio will be based on the band plan change in your area. Most all regions will happen at different times.

SG

Crimestopper wrote:So do you suggest that we sell any inventory that we may have such as the MTX8000's B3's, B5's and B7's. If so how much time do we have to unload our radios? Do private SMR's have anything to fall onto, when it comes to there region? I'm sitting on 40 MTX800's B7 which is not a lot, but I don't need expensive door stops. What do you suggest? To bad we can't file a class action suit and get new replacments...

Steve

EKLB · Post by **EKLB** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:24 am

I keep getting a blank page displayed when i try to access the above link for some reason.

Just wondering about the Maxtrac 800 B7 mobile = Im assuming it wont do the rebanding requirments ????

How does the Maxtrac 800 B7 mobile sit in regards to this ruling ?

Thanx EKLB

Victor Xray · Post by **Victor Xray** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:57 am

EKLB wrote:How does the Maxtrac 800 B7 mobile sit in regards to this ruling ?

Must be replaced, assuming your system currently uses any 865-870 freqs.

N4KVE · Post by **N4KVE** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:00 am

Hello. Over the years I have collected several Jedi's. B3's & B7's. They all do 850-870 mhz & as amazing as it seems 1 particular B3 does H 38 Smartzone. I dont know how it does it but it works. Since anything is possible why would the MTX 8000's be trash or not usable? Since NPSIC will be moved there might be dev issues in a small area of the band but these radios will still work. Small FD's don't have tons of $ to burn on new radios. Just my 2 cents. 73's GARY N4KVE

N9LLO · Post by **N9LLO** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:17 am

Because the FCC channel numbers will change and this information is hard coded into your radio. If you cannot reflash the radio with the new channel number/frequency table the radio will not work properly, or your trunktracking scanner for that matter.

Chris
N9LLO

Victor Xray · Post by **Victor Xray** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:25 am

To expand on what Chris said, in simple terms:

When a talkgroup becomes active, the control channel does not tell your radio to "switch to freq 867.650" - instead, it says "go to this HEX value". The hex value represents 867.650 due to a pre-determined bandplan, offsets, and mapping of hex-to-frequency chart that was created a long time ago.

After rebanding occurs, the new bandplan will NOT follow the old bandplan, especially if new frequencies are added (splinter channels where there weren't recognized channels before). Therefore, when the control channel says "go to this HEX value", your MTX will either not know what that hex value means or it will revert to the wrong frequency.

Now remember, if you are a legitimate user on a PS system, NEXTEL will pay to reflash your existing radios, or they will replace your existing radios, assuming you're using LCS or LTS or another unflashable public-safety approved radio (i.e. NOT MTX8000)

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:27 am

N9LLO's comment is true for TrunkTrackers, but only true for Motorola radios IF they use FCC channels numbers for voice channel assignment designation in the OSW. I don't believe they do.

VX is, I believe, correct that the frequency for an 800 voice channel grant is specified by means of an integer, representing that number of steps at a given interval from a given boundary. Under rebanding, I have reason to believe, neither the interval nor the boundary will change. Therefore, so long as your SmartNet-derived system uses control channels that don't change, your radio will continue to work. See "Category A" in the chart that someone else has posted.

Crimestopper · Post by **Crimestopper** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:18 am

Well, even with the rebanding, I could still get $135.00 for GTX all day, they just need to be shipped out of the country....what is a realistic timeframe for rebanding? Lastly, I just read another post with the schedule and they stated that the MTX8000's can be retuned if it is being used for the first 120, if so then what adjustments will be needed?

emcom · Post by **emcom** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:43 am

I hope the MTX8000's can be re-banded. We have about 30 of them in use on our PS Smartnet system in our office alone. They were sold to us in 1995.

Our freqs are below 861. However, we do have a couple of conventional mutual aid repeaters on 866 Mhz.

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:49 am

again, the MTX8000 is NOT a public safety radio and is NOT flashport upgradeable, it's firmware is hard coded into a masked ROM, so no upgrade is possible (unless the entire controller board is replaced with a Flashport board). also, the MTX8000 is not TYPE ACCEPTED for use above 865.9875MHz, so if you are using them on a PS system, you are using uncertified equipment for that freq range.

Whoever sold them to you did a bad thing if they were going to be used on a PS system. The MTX8000 is a Privacy Plus radio intended for use on Privacy Plus trunked systems. It doesn't support all the APCO-16 features of Smartnet nor is type accepted for use on the NPSPAC channels.

The key is making sure you have an accurate accounting for all your agencies' radios and submitting the inventory to the TA when your wave is up.

http://www.800ta.org is a great resource for those affected by this.

emcom · Post by **emcom** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:17 pm

WC4RAV wrote:again, the MTX8000 is NOT a public safety radio ...Whoever sold them to you did a bad thing if they were going to be used on a PS system. The MTX8000 is a Privacy Plus radio intended for use on Privacy Plus trunked systems. It doesn't support all the APCO-16 features of Smartnet nor is type accepted for use on the NPSPAC channels.

Well, the radios were purchased in 1995 direct from Motorola in a multi-million dollar purchase of a IIi system. Police and Fire got MTS2000's and our dept. (EMA) got MTX8000's. I guess this was done to save money. The older versions of the radio software would program the NPSPAC channels fine....later versions blocked these frequencies out. They were not really supposed to have been sold as public safety radios.

We actually had some users with MTX800's on the system using type I trunking before we went to all type II.

For the most part, we use Southern Linc now for our internal comms & statewide EMA comms. Our linc radios have been re-programmed for the new band plan. The Smartnet is used just to talk to local PS agencies and run our siren system.

Btw, we used to be WC4ADG before the FCC stopped renewing RACES calls.

N7OLQ · Post by **N7OLQ** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:58 am

There is a silver lining that has not been mentioned.

Since the MTX8000's are not public safety radios, the rebanding should not impact their market value.

Karl NVW · Post by **Karl NVW** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:27 pm

RKG said:

N9LLO's comment is true for TrunkTrackers, but only true for Motorola radios IF they use FCC channels numbers for voice channel assignment designation in the OSW. I don't believe they do.

VX is, I believe, correct that the frequency for an 800 voice channel grant is specified by means of an integer, representing that number of steps at a given interval from a given boundary. Under rebanding, I have reason to believe, neither the interval nor the boundary will change. Therefore, so long as your SmartNet-derived system uses control channels that don't change, your radio will continue to work. See "Category A" in the chart that someone else has posted.

RKG, your first assumption is wrong. The P25 spec requires a channel number to assign a voice channel, though it may not be the same as the FCC channel number. Since the entire PLM 806-816 (851-861) plan is being renumbered, all trunking controllers will be sending out new channel numbers. Your scanner will be looking for voice channels in the wrong places if it still has an old channel number index.

Your second assumption regarding interval and boundary is wrong as well. The new channels from 806 to 809 (851 to 854) are spaced only 12.5 kHz, where the existing ones are 25 kHz apart. You'll also discover that the new top boundary for private land mobile after rebanding is not 824.0 (869.0) any more.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

So far as I am aware, P25 has nothing to do with existing SmartNet conventional trunking systems.

I can't testify under oath about he use of FCC channel numbers (or any other scheme of discrete channel numbers, as opposed to boundary offsets) in SmartNet OSW channel grants, but my source for that is pretty good -- AND, if it were not true, then Motorola could not put C-type Spectras and Sabers in "Category A" in their rebanding handout.

Time, I guess, will tell.

Post by **xmo** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:55 am

Category A frequency moves will be out of the bottom of the band [851.0125 thru 853.9875] - not into it - in order to make room for the new NPSPAC channels.

The new channels for these systems will be from 854.0125 through 861.9875. These frequencies are within the existing interleaved spectrum so even though the FCC channel numbers may change, the existing radio and controller firmware can still compute them using the existing base & offset.

That's why these systems only require radio reprogramming [retune] rather than replacement.

BTW - Motorola has developed a plan so that the OSW on rebanded systems will contain a bit that identifies that the system is using the new channel plan. That will allow radios with the new firmware to determine which channel numbering to use.

That way radios can interoperate on systems that use the old channel numbers [i.e. Category A] and systems that use the new numbers.

jjbond · Post by **jjbond** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:45 pm

Here's a handy tool.. put in your frequency and it tells you if it needs to change as well as other useful information about how it's affected by rebanding.

http://www.800ta.org/content/800MHz/frequency_ch.asp

Jennifer

Re Banding 800 Mhz radios

Re Banding 800 Mhz radios

REBANDING?

A handy link