Radio confiscation stories

ricciticcitembo · Post by **ricciticcitembo** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:29 pm

I just read Someone else'e horror story and I thought I'd share mine.
One time, and I'm not going into any more details
because you wouldn,t believe me anyway -But it is TRUE federal agents drove me back home from the county lock up
and "inspected" my apartment, garage, and business. (I had a lot of crap in a duffel bag that I'll grant you DID look
suspicious). Like 5 grand worth of Electronics. Big "M" symbol on most of it.
Other boxes were hand made by me, And the Cops took just one look at me, and the contents of that bag and procedded
to put hand cuffs and feet cuffs on me and threw me in the back seat of the patrol car.

Thank God all of this happened BEFORE I got charged and fingerprinted. I just kept complaining
to the local officers about how I was going to press charges for false arrest, and I guess they took me seriously
because the Feds did show up in a couple of hours- which started its own ball of wax......

An other time ...I was pulled over to the side of the road minding my own business drinking coffee, and a Cop shows
up at my driver's side window and tells me to hand him the radio sitting on the passenger seat. He caught me by
surprise for sure, but it gets better....

I explain to him thatit is a ham HT (it WAS too. a kenwood TH-22). Well don't you know he turned it on,
looked at the display, started turning the channel selector, found his local Police Frequency in the memory, And
started TALKING BACK TO DISPATCH with it! And next he starts walking back to his patrol car still talking on MY radio.
And I can't hear him because he has mine.

At this point I am sweating bullets and checking my underware. Watching him on the rear view mirror STILL TALKING ON MY RADIO !
And I'm still shittin bricks as I see TWO MORE CARS pull up.

So now all FOUR Cops approach my little blue Honda and tell me to step out of the car. At this point I'm in a daze.
The One who originally "Pulled Me over" does most of the talking. He tells me to walk a straight line, point to my nose
and a few other things I don't remember. All I keep thinking is why would I be drinking at 9:00 AM on Sunday morning?
He asks why I have so many Keys. I tell him that I am A janitor and I'm late for work (True). After a short time he simply
hands me back my kenwood, tells me to have a nice day, and don't be late for work. No mention of the Radio at all !
UNBELIEVEABLE BUT THATS WHAT HAPPENED.

And there was another incident too that I recall.... Lately I just disguise my radios so they don't look like radios at all.
That works the best. Thats one of the resons I built my own multi saber box. It looks like a blank plate in the dash. But
what to do with the HT?

And if YOU live in California or Canada and walk around with your Astro Saber--What the hell do you think is going to happen??????

Lets face it, Most authority type people don't know much about radios. Federal Agents Included.
(They sent outy Experts in my case though)

RCVMO · Post by **RCVMO** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 3:42 pm

About 20 some years ago, I was just about 2 weeks shy of getting my First Class License and had an old Regency HLU-10 in myvehicle. I had a beacon set up at my house and was heading to my cottage some 70 miles from home. My scanner would periodically pick up the beacon which I was glad for until I reached down to turn the squelch control to get some more sensitivity. I crossed the yellow line on a 2 lane and there you have it the county sheriff was sitting behind the tree. He pulled me over and asked if I had been drinking, I said no , and took the PBT test, which came up negative. He asked again why I crossed the yellow line and I told him that I was changing channels on my cb radio. I was told to stand by the patrol car while he searched my vehicle, came back holding my scanner in hand, and asked, " If this is a cb radio, How come I just heard the State Police over it?" Well???????????? Goodbye scanner and they gave me a reciept and a court date. When I showed up for court, my dad knew the judge and the prosecutor, swung some kinda deal, the judge asked to see my License and called the deputy in. Poor soul :>:>:>:>:> I got my scanner back, but had to pay $75.00 court cost and away we go. I had seen the deputy some 15 years later when worked for a PD/FD conversion shop and I was fully incharge of his fleet. It wasn't until I had the county check in hand did I tell him who I was.
Hmmmmmmmmm?????????

chad_g69 · Post by **chad_g69** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:29 pm

ok - the most recent time, i was on a GMRS frequency talking with a friend, i was sitting in front of my building on private property, not public/city property... cops drove by a few times
then 10 minutes later, they came back and asked me to hold my my radio, they looked at it. the driver of the car got out of the car and started to walk toward me, the other cop told me to bring it to them. I SLOWLY got up, buy the time i got up, the driver took the radio from me. he started pushing buttons... (ALL THE LAPD FREQUENCIES are in their own zone, and are receive only - cop did not know how to change the zone, so they did not know it had LAPD programmed into it)
they asked me why i had the radio. I said i purchased it to communicate with family and friends, and to use it for work on an encrypted DES-OFB astro channel. The cop said it is aginst the law for me to have the radio. He also stated that the LAPD had many of these radios stolen from them (according to the Van Nuys watch commander, only 12 radios are outstanding) The cop said it is also against the law for me to have the encryption module installed into the radio.
The cops stated they have to take the radio from me. I told them it is MY radio, i have the origianal box, manual, and a bill of sale and i can get all that within 1 minute. The cop told me to bring everything i have to the Station. I told them i have the paperwork upstairs, and i can get it now... i need my radio back. I also explained that these radios are all over ebay for sale, and ANYONE can buy them from motorola if they are willing to pay the price.

The cops told me to step back, and get the radio the following monday. I asked for some sort of paperwork stating they took my radio from me.

I personally know a watch commander of my neighborhood station, and a detective of a station in a different area. after i got the paperwork from the cops, i called my detective friend, who has gotten my radio back for me atleast 5 times in the past. I faxed him the paperwork (an actual police report). I went to the station as i was instructed to do, they refused to give me my radio, stating it had LAPD programming in it. I explained that anyone can listen to them, they are digital, but not encrypted. They got a supervisor, who started an argument with me, so i gave up and left. I, again, talked to my detective friend (who is now retired), he got my radio back the following week.

Again: my radio has ALL the original stickers (serial/model/fccid, flashcode, etc..) i have all the paperwork and packaging
Before i purchased this radio, i called the police station in my area, spoke with the watch commanders office, and told them i was going to buy a Astro Saber radio, and explained it was the same radio they use, i asked if they could run the serial# to make sure it was clean. I gave them the model#, serial#, flash code, and the ebay item# of it. They called the Information and Technology Dept to check on the radio, and called me back 2 hours later... and stated the radio was clean and there is no problems with me having it. They even exlained that i can put LAPD frequencies into it in RECEIVE MODE ONLY, and exlained i can not repeat the info i hear, cant listen to lapd in my car, and can not use the information heard for personal gain, etc.... The officer even faxed me a listing of all the channel numbers w/ descriptions, and some (about 5) dispatch frequencies. 

Having the LAPD mess with me about my radio is happening VERY often... it is a waste of my time, and im sure the cops should have better things to take care of... like some of the real crimes and shootings i hear on the radio...

**************************************
Now if you want to hear something REAL funny... 1 month after this - i started my school internship for the City of Los Angeles Communications...

chad_g69 · Post by **chad_g69** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:20 pm

LAPD refused to give me my radio back after i presented all my paperwork, packaging... the reason they would not let me have it is because "it contained LAPD programming" what it contained was the repeater output frequencies of the LAPD repeaters in my area, and channel descriptions (most of which were faxed to me a watch commander) I CAN NOT dump a LAPD codeplug into my radio due to the different Flashcodes...

The Freakin LAPD read my radio and reprogrammed it (removing the LAPD channels) before they released it to my detective friend - i had been using RSS 9.01 for my radio - after i got my radio back i got a 'codeplug too new application' with my RSS, i had to obtain a copy of a newer RSS to re-program my own radio - this is *B*U*L*L*S*H*I*T*

something needs to be done, and SOON

i was also notified today i need to choose another comany to do my internship with. My school was notified about my previous problems with my radio and LAPD, and that it would be best it i did not have access to LAPD radios and computer equipment

i do have a few cops as friends, and i would do ANYTHING to help them (all cops - after all i was a volunteer for the LAFD (search and rescue)many YEARS ago)- but this is out of hand. A LOT of officers in my area look like gangbangers (with tatoos and all) who witness gang activity, and do NOTHING... they see me with my Astro, and all hell breaks out...

cant wait until i move..

chad

mike38015 · Post by **mike38015** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:46 pm

I would call your local ACLU office, they might fight this battle for you.

jim · Post by **jim** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:53 pm

Next time you get a chance, program one of LAPD's radios and turn off the RIB while it's writing the EEPROM!

I was stopped several years ago by one of the shaved headed Gestapo Nazis where I live. He saw my Alinco dual bander and heard his dispatch in it. He called for four other units for backup, since I must have appeared to be an axe murderer or something. He threatened to confiscate the radio, impound my Cherokee and arrest me for having a radio with their frequency and a microphone with it. This dumbass even tried to run my ham call through NCIC. The dispatchers were laughing in the background when he requested this, adding fuel to the fire. Monday morning, I filed charges at the magistrate and one of the cops in this department told me to drop them. I did and several days later he was suspended without pay for five days. Two weeks later, he did something else stupid to someone else and it ended his career in our borough making this the SIXTH department that he got fired from.

Yet another town.....

A friend of mine lived between a set of VASCAR lines. I drove a 1989 Caprice 9C1 car and was parked in front of his house. He came down and sat in the car for only minutes and after I left, the cop running VASCAR stopped me and asked why I have a scanner in my car. Like a smartass, but honest, I said "to scan."
He then said that my radio (10M) was interfering with his VHF police radio. He did all of the typical harrassment procedures and told me that I am no longer permitted to transmit in HIS jurisdiction or I'd be prosecuted. Yes sir, occifer, sir! I will keep it to a minimum of 1500-1600 PEP on sideband in YOUR town for now on.

This guy was another that always did 'stupid' things to everyone. He kept this up for a few years doing similar things to everyone he stopped. He now drives an access cab and is a rent-a-cop for Norfolk Souther railroad.

These guys thinkn they know everything about everything. The truth is that most cops barely know the difference between a Krispy Kreme and a Munchkin, let alone anything radio related.

n3obl · Post by **n3obl** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 7:11 pm

delete

chad_g69 · Post by **chad_g69** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 7:23 pm

according to federal law...

it is not unlawful to have a radio w/ pd x-mits in it...
it is unlawful to x-mit on them if you are not authorized

i wish LAPD Officers would READ THE MANUAL that the Information and Technology has in regards to radio, and scanner laws

BTW: one of the guys i work w/ had a VHF astro saber III taken from him (this morning) by LAPD (who uses a UHF system)...
according to the police report:

count 1 - Owning a digital 2-way radio which is used for government agencies
count 2 - Owning encryption technology which is used for government agencies (DES-OFB and DES-XL - same module i have)

he was arrested and taken into custody, released 4 hours later, but still NO RADIO... he came over to my house 30 minutes ago, asking me if my detective friend can get it back for him..

i wonder why cops dont mess with me when im walking down the street with my 800MHz MTS2000 radio (w/ encryption module)?????????????????????

mts2000des2 · Post by **mts2000des2** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:28 pm

Well first off, many years ago at age 16, I went to a local amusement park and carried my portable, at the time a 220MHz ICOM IC-03AT ham radio, and mind you this was 1991, before Nextel, cellular and all that, so after walking around the park and riding the rides, etc, I sat down in the rest area. I struck up a conversation on a local repeater, and when I got up, NO LESS THAN FIVE Six Flags security officers surrounded me. One of them said he was an off duty county police officer, showed me his badge, and asked for my radio. I being a kid, handed it over. He began to jot down the serial/model number, at this time I was escorted to their security office.

Another female S.O. was waiting for me, and began asking me questions about who I was, took down my name, DOB, etc. She handed it to the off duty officer who was on the phone with radio, running me, running my radio for wants, etc. So after that happened, I started to get pissed. I asked what all this was about? And the female said, "Will this radio pick up our channels? Why do you have that? Who were you talking to?"

To which I replied: 1)-No, it is VHF 220MHz amateur only, your radios are UHF 460MHz. 2)-Because I am an FCC licensed amateur radio operator, and I planned on using a telephone patch to call my parents to pick me up when I was through visiting the park. 3)-Another ham on the other side of town.

Not satisified with my answers, the female proceeded to talk to the off duty officers, and then returned. Now the county PD officer walked over and he said, "You need to leave the park with this (radio). We don't allow radios in the park, period. If you return to the park with this radio, than I will arrest you for criminal trespassing". he handed me back the radio, and I left- with all five of these morons FOLLOWING ME out.

Well later in life, I analyzed the scenario. First off, these idiots got spooked because some kid had a "fancy looking" radio and got curious, probabbly thought it was "one of theirs". Secondly, I was held against my will, as GA law states that to constitute false arrest, and acutal arrest doesn't have to take place, just merely prevent someone from their freedom of movement without legal reason is false arrest. And there is no law against having a radio, not in Georgia. So no PC, no stop. I paid admission to the park (had my receipt), so I was not "trespassing", and the whole stop was bogus. I explained why I had it, as the park is private property, and that I was a paying guest. It (the radio) offered no threat, since it could not even RX/TX outside the 220 ham band, and could in now way cause interference to the park radios. Just uneducated red neck cops and security guards who "think" something must be illegal because "not everybody has one" or "it looks like one's we have".

Well look for more of this since 9/11. I am sure that everyone with an expensive piece of sophisticated radio gear is now a "terrorist" and according to our Federal government "can be held indefinately if suspected of terrorist involvment". I can only imagine what kind of world we will be living in if this absurdity continues...especially being in posession of any radio that is capable of RXing on public safety frequencies. Never mind the hundreds of thousands of law abiding scanner listeners and ham radio operators, but the few bad apples spoil it for all of us. Just like the gun grabbers, the radio grabbers will be next.
Thanks, Bin Laden.

We just have to be more aware of circumstances. For example, carrying around a bunch of radios in airport might now be looked at as suspicious, or being in a park or other public gathering place with a "police looking radio" may give some numnuts the idea that the next plane is coming down, calls 911, and a SWAT callout occurs. You can thank the media for their nice mass-paranoia campaign. There are a million times when someone has stopped to ask me "who I work for" because of the MTS2000's. We all just have to be EXTRA CAREFUL to satisfy the answers so people don't get the wrong idea. I think it is fair to say that 99.9 percent of us are law-abiding hobbyists and professionals who have a passion for communications.

But try explaining that when in handcuffs in an interrogation room looking in the face of a sea of FBI agents who see you as the next "Al Queda" operative.

chad_g69 · Post by **chad_g69** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:54 pm

I carry my FCC license for my GMRS, and a copy of my works BUSINESS (IB) permit, and my proof of employment from the company name on the IB perment.. dont mean :o to the cops..

 FEDERAL permits mean nothing to local police... the LAPD thinks they can override FEDERAL law... and YES THEY TRY TO...

r0f wrote:There should be "carrying permits" (for radios) issued to those of us who request them. If this doesn't happen soon, we're all going to keep getting screwed over.

That is EXACTLY how I was treated when I was arrested by 12 guys with vests/guns. They said "why do you have this" and "why do you have trunker" (haha, they didn't get it though because one of their crooked cop friends tipped me off 8 days before they came, hah hah hah loser cops). They don't understand that we're just hobbyists, and this is our hobby. I would love to just spit on them, and make them feel just as bad. Where do they get off on treating us like this? It's not even remotely funny.

They don't care. It's not their money. Most cops are power-trippy and enjoy being "in charge", so to speak.

Who cares if it's capable of rx/tx on a PD frequency? Is a gun capable of killing someone? Do you kill people? Well then.....?

I think we all need to start keeping to ourselves. Radio isn't like it used to be anymore. I don't dare have external antennas or high-profile setups anymore. People are too damn nosey, and the last thing you need is nosey neighbors who call police, landlords, FBI, KGB, CIA, UFOs, etc. HAH.

I know I sound a little nuts, but this has happened to me far too many times to give them any slack. It's not about the radio to me, it's about "the right to do what I want to do" if it's within the law. They try to bend the laws so it fits their opinions.

Shaun

ricciticcitembo · Post by **ricciticcitembo** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:55 pm

I think you really hit the nail on the head about the thank you bin laden thing. Stupid Terrorists make EVERYONE suffer for their actions.

At least for me, Having been thouroly investigated by Federal Government Electronics Experts, I now have my Name on "the list" and its been on the list for at least 10 years now. After the original incedent, I caught them following me on SEVERAL occasions. I was under direct observation for a long time. The benifit of all of this is that THEY KNOW EVERTHING ABOUT ME. Which is a good thing. And I can't say I've had any bad Experiences lately at all.

In fact just the other week I was out cleaning late and a Police Officer shows up, and the first thing I did was grab mt MTS2000 BEFORE HE EVEN SEEN IT. (I had just gotten it a day before) And show it to him. I was All excited because I had just programmed it up for County Trunking. He said It was Exactly like His, And Asked me where I got it, And I said Ebay. I told him I liked the Older Federal Goverment Saber that I had Better because Even though It didn't have a Display, It It waterproof and Receives better. We talked for a good 10 minutes or so, and He never even asked me who I was or Why the hell I had an identical Radio like his. And I'm sure he doesn't know me, And I've never seen him before either. It was just that I was SO CONVINCING that HE just ASSUMED I was a Cop, or Agent. And I didn't even volunteer that I was a HAM radio operator. (Don't like to admit it much. Too many old farts)

Alot of it has to do with how you present yourself. A cop is trained like a dog. He can "Sniff" you out. If you act suspicious, or are trying to hide your radio, or are evasive IN ANY WAY or ANGRY in any way, He can tell. What YOU MUST DO however is HAVE AN ANSWER for his EVERY QUESTION. And If you give him three or more "correct" answers in a row, He will tell you to have a nice day. Trust me, It works.

The very very worst thing you can do is LIE to him. A COP is like a polygraph. You can trick him, but you've got to be good. But It's better to just tell the truth , And part of what makes the truth work is A PLAUSABLE EXPLANATION.

"I have a radio because It is legal for me to listen " is NOT A PLAUSABLE EXPLANATION. Think About it for a minute. Put yourself (if you can) in the cop's shoes for a minute. Once again they are trained to see the "Worst" in people. And believe me they do. And they WILL MAKE UP A CHARGE and HOLD YOU If they feel you are hiding something.

How about Other "good radio Experiences" like what Happend with my MTS2000

Keyed up a 440 repeater 1200 miles away at 20000 feet on a 747 with 200mw on a standard C508A

Talked simplex on different flight 500 miles away on 146.52 don't know the altitude on that one

Walked into A FBI office , through the beeping metal detector talking to a friend on my HT, proceded to take the elevator to the top floor for better coverage.

Talking on the HT in the white house. Watching my pocket TV in the white house.

Using a Saber talking for an hour in a casino in New Jersey.

The above things really happened, and nobody stopped me, asked any questions, or said anything at all to me. And I really don't rember, but I would bet that no one was even looking at me funny.

I've done other stupid things like the above mentioned, but they are the most prominent examples I can think of, And the main point I am trying to make here is I Reeeeeely thing that how you present your self, has A LOT to do with what "Happens" to You. More than you may think perhaps.

chad_g69 · Post by **chad_g69** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:31 pm

as my 1st msg states - the cops gave me orders, never asked me anything - i told them i had the paperwork, and where i got it... and they took my radio from me... never lied to them - never tried to hid anything... i was talking on a GMRS channel, which i am licensed to by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT...and i kept talking on it even though the cops were driving by... when they finally stopped where i was - i was still talking - did not try to hide anything... I was even talking on the Astro when the cops told me to come to there car.

When i was in front of my building - I was on PRIVATE PROPERTY, not on the city property... this is another factor that pisses me off

NEVER been messed with for having a MTS2000 radio w/ LAFD and LA City Trunking channels in it...but as the LAPD stated - it is unlawful to have a digital radio, and it is also unlawful to have an encryption module unless you work for the government... (i guess they dont know what the S stands for in MTS2000 --> encryption)

i do carry the FCC permit which lists the emissions type for digital transmissions from work, along w/ proof of employment, i also carry my FCC licenses... cops do not care about what permits you have, unless the permits are issued by the LAPD...

ricciticcitembo wrote:I think you really hit the nail on the head about the thank you bin laden thing. Stupid Terrorists make EVERYONE suffer for their actions.

At least for me, Having been thouroly investigated by Federal Government Electronics Experts, I now have my Name on "the list" and its been on the list for at least 10 years now. After the original incedent, I caught them following me on SEVERAL occasions. I was under direct observation for a long time. The benifit of all of this is that THEY KNOW EVERTHING ABOUT ME. Which is a good thing. And I can't say I've had any bad Experiences lately at all.

In fact just the other week I was out cleaning late and a Police Officer shows up, and the first thing I did was grab mt MTS2000 BEFORE HE EVEN SEEN IT. (I had just gotten it a day before) And show it to him. I was All excited because I had just programmed it up for County Trunking. He said It was Exactly like His, And Asked me where I got it, And I said Ebay. I told him I liked the Older Federal Goverment Saber that I had Better because Even though It didn't have a Display, It It waterproof and Receives better. We talked for a good 10 minutes or so, and He never even asked me who I was or Why the hell I had an identical Radio like his. And I'm sure he doesn't know me, And I've never seen him before either. It was just that I was SO CONVINCING that HE just ASSUMED I was a Cop, or Agent. And I didn't even volunteer that I was a HAM radio operator. (Don't like to admit it much. Too many old farts)

Alot of it has to do with how you present yourself. A cop is trained like a dog. He can "Sniff" you out. If you act suspicious, or are trying to hide your radio, or are evasive IN ANY WAY or ANGRY in any way, He can tell. What YOU MUST DO however is HAVE AN ANSWER for his EVERY QUESTION. And If you give him three or more "correct" answers in a row, He will tell you to have a nice day. Trust me, It works.

The very very worst thing you can do is LIE to him. A COP is like a polygraph. You can trick him, but you've got to be good. But It's better to just tell the truth , And part of what makes the truth work is A PLAUSABLE EXPLANATION.

"I have a radio because It is legal for me to listen " is NOT A PLAUSABLE EXPLANATION. Think About it for a minute. Put yourself (if you can) in the cop's shoes for a minute. Once again they are trained to see the "Worst" in people. And believe me they do. And they WILL MAKE UP A CHARGE and HOLD YOU If they feel you are hiding something.

How about Other "good radio Experiences" like what Happend with my MTS2000

Keyed up a 440 repeater 1200 miles away at 20000 feet on a 747 with 200mw on a standard C508A

Talked simplex on different flight 500 miles away on 146.52 don't know the altitude on that one

Walked into A FBI office , through the beeping metal detector talking to a friend on my HT, proceded to take the elevator to the top floor for better coverage.

Talking on the HT in the white house. Watching my pocket TV in the white house.

Using a Saber talking for an hour in a casino in New Jersey.

The above things really happened, and nobody stopped me, asked any questions, or said anything at all to me. And I really don't rember, but I would bet that no one was even looking at me funny.

I've done other stupid things like the above mentioned, but they are the most prominent examples I can think of, And the main point I am trying to make here is I Reeeeeely thing that how you present your self, has A LOT to do with what "Happens" to You. More than you may think perhaps.

chad_g69 · Post by **chad_g69** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:41 pm

I know a lot of cops read these messages, and are members of this forum... maybe they can spread the word to other officers about scanner and radio laws and educate each other.

Also - digital is not encrypted, anyone can LEGALLY listen...

just because my radio has an encryption module does not mean i can listen to anyones encrypted messages... One needs the ACTUAL ENCRYPTION KEY from the person(s)/agency radio system they are attepting to listen to... there are millions of codes...

cops need to know ANYONE can get the Motorola Astro Saber III Radio, from private parties, Ebay,or directly from motorola...

*Anyone who is willing to pay the price, can legally buy ANY RADIO with or without a encryption module*

Again i mean no dis-respect...i have a few LAPD officers as my friend for MANY years, and would do anything to help ANY LAPD or LAFD officer in my area... (well, any law enforcement officer, or firefighter...) even the ones that have given me a hard time. I know cops have a hard job, and SOME but not all people use the radios for unlawful things, but most of us here have FEDERAL PERMITS (FCC) to use these radios. I have a GMRS permit, and am in the middle of getting a amatur radio permit, and use my personal radio for work, and carry around a copy of that permit, along w/ proof of employment from the same company that the FCC license is issued to.

if i was in to unlawful activities, i would not ask the federal government for a permit to broadcast my messages on a specific set of frequencies...

***LET US ALL COMMUNICATE TO HELP RESOLVE SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS***

jim · Post by **jim** » Thu Jun 06, 2002 6:40 am

Speaking of digital....

most cops believe that digitial absolutely CANNOT be monitored by anyone and it is a secure system. They also think that trying to "get into" a digital system to listen is illegal. They don't realize that with the proper hardware and software, one can easily listen to even a digitally encrypted system. Although this hard/software isn't cheap, it is available only to authorized government agancies. It runs on a PC and will set you back a mere $5800.00
Now I'm sure that if you know the right person, you can get this easily.

One of our local departments uses Securenet on their Spectras and think that NOBODY can get into it- even with the proper radios and the keys. It's impossible- their radio service says so. We all know about some of these radio services!

Others actually use Nextel because they think it's secure. After all, the Nextel radio commercial says it's secure !!

Monitoring a digitally encrypted signal is borderline illegal (yes, borderline. There are too many loopholes), but if you do it, keep it to yourself. Don't tell all of your friends that you can do it. What you hear stays with you. After all, this is a freakin' hobby. It's not worth a confrontation with the Hitler squad over it. Who knows...you may just "slip and fall" as they lead you down the stairs to the holding cell.

...and no, I don't hate police. I work with them everyday and many of my close personal friends are cops. I just think that all of the corrupt "harass-holes" should all be shot. We don't need them and most 'good cops' will strongly agree with me.

n5rwc · Post by **n5rwc** » Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:28 am

I was driving down the road in Beverly Hills in my Porsche one sunny day just minding my own business playing some CD's when all of a sudden I was pulled over for - NOTHING! I had my MOT HT with me and it tuned on the local Ham repeater. The cop asked me what it was and I told him it was my HT for Ham Radio - then I said RECOGNIZE! He said "let me see it". I told him "over my dead body!". Then it happened.

He said if I didn't show it to him I would go to jail. I said " what's the deal man you just jealous?". Then he said "alright" and the cop grabbed my collar on my new polo sport shirt and started pulling me out my car! I said "ahhh man don't you know how much this shirt cost?!" He didn't grunt either so I knew then he was very strong. He threw me to the ground and started beating me with his baton as I was holding onto my HT for dear life. I yelled "you'll pry this HT from my dead hands cop!!!".

Just then my backup arrived! Two friends from the country club showed up in their Lexus and luckily they brought a new high-end digital camera just purchased from Best Buy for $2000. They started filming as the cop was wildly beating me. I was trying to protect my face with my HT. I wondered how my friends knew my location and it turns out that they saw me on the newly installed APRS system in my Porsche attached to my other Motorola system.

To make a long story shorter the cop never got my HT. After all of this I went to the city and the press with my buddies video. The cop was fired, charged with being jealous of a man with a Mot HT and convicted. He has been sentenced to 15 years. After all this I feel very lucky to have my friends, my Mot HT and of course the Sony digital video products of today for helping me with this case. If it weren't for all of this coming together the way it did there is no telling how badly I would have been beaten and without my Mot HT.

The moral of this is to Never - NEVER give up your Motorola.

ricciticcitembo · Post by **ricciticcitembo** » Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:04 am

n5rwc de n3wbx. WOW that is incredible. Very very similar to one of my incidents. I so far haven't had any trouble with my APRS/laptops/KVL w/ rf modem/ft530/saber/KAM/amps/iden/cdma mounted in a briefcase, but I don't carry it around much. Mostly when working on a tough interference problem at a site. It is might cool though, and I wish I COULD just carry it around like a vacuum cleaner, But that would Be stupid. I know, I know it's perfectly legal blah blah blah But It's just not worth the time it takes me to explain to the interested "official" how this old satelite phone works. Ha Ha.

Jim has really hit the bullseye. And the sooner you gys with the AS3's in LA and Canada learn this the better. Use a different radio for crist sakes already and stop bitchin about it. It is a fact of life. Move On. Not trying to be rude or anything or flaming or anything, just trying to be as honest with you as i possibly can.
You KNOW an AS causes trouble with the local yokels, so use the MTS or XTS if you must have Digital. And your right, they don't care WHAT licenses you have unless there is a federal badge to go along with it. Get used to it. Welcome to America.
When I did most of this stuff I didn't even have a Driver's license, let alone any radio license. And believe me, It didn't make one bit of difference either.
Contrary to popular opinion when you get right down to the nitty gritty, You don't NEED a license to talk on the radio, or to drive. You only NEED electrical power and gasoline. And there are other people out there thank GOD who recognize, and understand this. But this is REEEEELY pushing the envelope. I did it before for a long long time and then one day i figured i might as well join the system, since all in all considering, the FEDS were extra nice to me and left me alone on my merry way. They Never did confiscate anything from me

Oh one more final thought from me related to this topic.
_DONT GO WALKING AROUND WITH THINGS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN INVENTED YET. And if it really really super duper, it will dissapear on its own. And there is NOTHING in this world that you can do about it. Period.

I Know it sounds kinda silly, but i found this out the hard way when one day my pocket sized Linearelectromagneticaccelerator (all one word) dissapeared from my secret electronically locked hiding place. With no damage to the safe at all. After a lot of reaserch, I was finally provided with the statement of"no more ray guns" by someone who i don't even know. That think took me three years to make, and a lot of MONEY TIME and ENGINEEING went into that little pet project of mine, and I haven't even mentioned it in like 10 years.
But i never made another one, or even really thought about it much. I mean i WAS mad for like a month or two, but i thought better of it and just forgot about it.

KitN1MCC · Post by **KitN1MCC** » Thu Jun 06, 2002 4:06 pm

Well i was hasseled one day by middletown Pd finest he grabbed my mike a tx and said how come i can hear it on my radio.

well i said no u hear the audio coming out of my mobile across st with window open

i talked to a freind at the ARRL and i guess middltown got a call and was told not to over step there authoirty

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Thu Jun 06, 2002 4:48 pm

A good friend of mine was stopping traffic for an accident. ( he is a member of our department) He had got there by POV and had set his radio up on top of his car and forgot it there. About an hour later a passer by found it and started talking on the local sheriff main channel.

RadioSouth · Post by **RadioSouth** » Thu Jun 06, 2002 5:20 pm

Don't generalize it is legal to posess a radio capable of transmitting on law enforcement freq's. as in some jurisdictions it is not.

Jonathan KC8RYW · Post by **Jonathan KC8RYW** » Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:27 pm

RadioSouth wrote:Don't generalize it is legal to posess a radio capable of transmitting on law enforcement freq's. as in some jurisdictions it is not.

Sigh.

Do these certain jurisdictions have their own frequency licensing organizations, too? If they are above the FCC, as they say they are, then why do they license THEIR radio frequencies through the FEDERAL communications commission? Think about it. It is blatently hypocritical.

I think I remember reading something about how radio waves were ENTIRELY the FCC's jurisdiction. Of course, the FCC is supposedly only allowed to regulate interstate and international communications. It really says nothing about Intrastate communications.

That debate has been going on for decades.

What about the First Amendment?

Code: Select all

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

What about the Federal Communications Act of 1934?

Code: Select all

Sec. 605. Unauthorized Publication or Use of Communications.
(a) Practices Prohibited.
Except as authorized by chapter 119, Title 18, no person receiving, assisting in receiving, transmitting, or
assisting in transmitting, any interstate or foreign communication by wire or radio shall divulge or publish the
existence, contents, substance, purport, effect, or meaning thereof, except through authorized channels of
transmission or reception, (1) to any person other than the addressee, his agent, or attorney, (2) to a person
employed or authorized to forward such communication to its destination, (3) to proper accounting or distributing
officers of the various communicating centers over which the communication may be passed, (4) to the
master of a ship under whom he is serving, (5) in response to a subpoena issued by a court of competent
jurisdiction, or (6) on demand of other lawful authority. No person not being authorized by the sender shall
intercept any radio communication and divulge or publish the existence, contents, substance, purport, effect,
or meaning of such intercepted communication to any person. No person not being entitled thereto shall
receive or assist in receiving any interstate or foreign communication by radio and use such communication
(or any information therein contained) for his own benefit or for the benefit of another not entitled thereto.
No person having received any intercepted radio communication or having become acquainted with the
contents, substance, purport, effect, or meaning of such communication (or any part thereof) or use such
communication (or any information therein contained) for his own benefit or for the benefit of another not
entitled thereto. This section shall also apply to the receiving, divulging, publishing, or utilizing the contents
of any radio communication which is transmitted by any station for the use of the general public, which relates
to ships, aircraft, vehicles, or person in distress, or which is transmitted by an amateur radio station operator
or by a citizens band radio operator.
(d) Penalties
(1) Any person who willfully violates subsection (a) of this section shall be fined not more than $1,000 or
imprisoned for not more than 6 months, or both.
(2) Any person who violates subsection (a) of this section willfully and for purposes of direct or indirect
commercial advantage or private financial gain shall be fined not more than $25,000 or imprisoned for
not more than 1 year, or both, for the first such conviction and shall be fined not more than $50,000 or
imprisoned for not more than 2 years, or both, for any such subsequent conviction.

What about FCC Part 97? The rules apply to all Ham's. Subpart E -- "Providing Emergency Communications."

Code: Select all

§97.403 Safety of life and protection of property.
No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of any means of radiocommunication at its disposal to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.

Code: Select all

§97.405 Station in distress.
(a) No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station in distress of any means at its disposal to attract attention, make known its condition and location, and obtain assistance. 

(b) No provision of these rules prevents the use by a station, in the exceptional circumstances described in paragraph (a), of any means of radiocommunications at its disposal to assist a station in distress

Now come on! Unless someone has a mod'ed ham HT or a JT1000, how are they supposed to plug in the local PD repeater when they are having an emergency? Think about it! What are we supposed to do, carry a laptop with RSS around with us all the time, so we can reprogram our HT's only when there is an emergency?

Most people will buy bandages and first aid kits BEFORE there is an emergency, not during an emergency. Most sane people will have car insurance BEFORE they leave the driveway.

These sections of Part 97 talk about ham radio's obligation to EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS. You know, the Boy Scout motto "Be Prepeared." How are hams supposed to be prepared to help our communities in emergencies, if we have to drive home to use RSS?

My advice, print out a copy of these rules, and carry them with you at all times. It might not be a bad thing to hook up with a good lawyer ASAP, to see what they suggest. And, see if they even know what an Astro Saber 3 even is

.

And, for anyone that lives in Michigan, you'd better fill out a scanner permit with the Michigan State Police. Here is the PDF form: http://www.mpscs.com/com-022.pdf . Don't worry if you are not a ham or a cop... odds are you will get the permit back in the mail. I sent mine in way before I became a ham, and declared my usage as "Railfanning and Recreational Use" and got a permit back A-OK.

The form has a copy of the Michigan Scanner Law, and also Federal Communications Act of 1934, Sec. 605 attached to it, with "important points" of the law underlined.

The MSP supposedly pulls a LEIN on your info, and if you check out, they send a permit back to you. What a waste of resources.

I think the $hit will hit the fan head-on when Digital TrunkTrackers become popular.

Your radio is YOURS... don't let it leave your hands without a warrent.

mts2000des2 · Post by **mts2000des2** » Fri Jun 07, 2002 10:23 pm

Just a note about trunking systems.The arguement that I am using an MTS2000 800 trunking radio with an active ID on a system "in case of emergency per part 97" is not gonna hold water because:

a)- said radio cannot xmit anywhere near the ham bands,

b)- haveing active id's and system keys may be a violation of state computer crime and intellectual property right laws.

Remember that trunking systems require proprietary software (system keys) and require active ID's to be truly capable of transmitting. Every time the radio affiliates, it is accessing a computer, and this could be big trouble if you are not duly authorized. And I am directing this at those who have "their friends codeplug or ID's" in their radios. You know who you are, this is not cute, and it is downright dumb. Ham or no ham, it can be very difficult to explain why you have a radio with someone else's system in it, ready to talk.

and let's face it, it is PC for a POLICE OFFICER to stop and ask you why you have a radio programmed with their system in it. Why? Because an Astro Saber is NOT a scanner, nor is a MTS2000 or an XTS3000. It is reasonable for him/her to be curious, that is their job, and depending on the circumstances of contact, may warrant further investigation. For example, you may be walking down the street, with your Astro cranked up on LAPD. If you were an LAPD officer, would you be a little curious at who the dude with the LAPD looking radio with LAPD sounding traffic coming out of it? Come on, I am not condoning bad cops, but try to have a little understanding, not all of these guys are radio aware and enthusiasts like we are. They meet people every day, and they are always placing their life on the line for us. No, they should not overstep their boundaries, and when they do they should be dealt with in court. But we as citizens must use a little sense.

You would not walk down the street with an HK MP5 in hand, and just because you are an FFL it is okay, BECAUSE THE BEAT OFFICERS DON'T KNOW YOU! They don't see a badge, so you can bet you will be stopped and asked a few questions! Similar with "police type" radios blaring the agencies' traffic. They want to do a "meet and greet" and find out if you are a good guy or a bad guy. Happens every day. My point is, just use COMMON SENSE. Don't go around waving this stuff in their face like is was an HK MP 5 and complain when they get irritated. Put yourself in their shoes.

And a note to our fellow hams out there: be careful, Mr. Hollingsworth is having a "field day" of his own pulling and setting aside licenses, even for offense not directly related to the amateur radio service. Having an unauthorized radio and getting a state charge IS grounds for losing your ham license, or costing you a lot to get it back. Remember that a license is not a right, and it can be taken away at any time. Be careful, use common sense, and stay below the radar. We can all have fun and will ensure that others will be able to enjoy this stuff in the future if we all act repsonisbly with it. "With great power comes great responsibility" was a line from the latest Spiderman movie. Let us all not forget this.

W4WTF · Post by **W4WTF** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 9:12 am

Thats why I keep the following in my vehicle.....

A copy of my ham license (large version) in addition to my wallet card.
A copy of the FCC ruling that state scanner laws do not apply to ham radio gear.
A copy of each states scanner laws that I travel in, with the amatuer radio excemption highlighted.
My Fire Department ID.
And the complete FCC part 97 rulebook.

I was hasseled once in KY, and I was prepared because of the horror staories I had heard about KY cops and the scanner laws. The ***hole was determined to take my gear despite my documentation, and I requested he call his syupervisor over so I would have a witness. His supervisor promptly chewed his ass and let me go once he saw what documentation I had presented him.

RadioSouth · Post by **RadioSouth** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 9:34 am

Don't generalize it is legal to posess a radio capable of transmitting on law enforcement freq's. as in some jurisdictions it is not.[/quote]
Sigh.

Yes, some juristictions specifically have a law against posessing a radio capable of transmission on police frequencies.

.

Your radio is YOURS... don't let it leave your hands without a warrent.[/quote]

Very bad advise here, if you do resist you'll likely have the snot knocked out of you and
if the underlying charge does get dismissed the 'resisting' charge can still be found to be valid.
While it would be up to you in court to demonstrate how a federal statute would
pre-empt a local law (not all do) your talking major inconvenience and a big legal bill.

nozzle75 · Post by **nozzle75** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:10 am

Ok, here goes.I don't know how it is in other states, but here in SOuth Carolina, this is the way it works. THere are statutes here in the state. They cover everything from criminal domestic violence to minor traffic violations. Most cities have ordinances beyond that but almost all of them recognize the higher court and the higher law. The point, there are no laws restricting the use of scanners, amateur radios, or business band equipment. There are statutes citing radio interference and FCC regulations.

We're all nosey; even us cops. We all like toys and for those of you who have been legitimately wronged, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that my job becomes difficult (Protecting the lives of strangers and more importantly myself) when I can't get on the radio to call for help because some one has stolen a radio and causing trouble. Now granted there is even harsher punishment for people causing those problems (ex. Interfering with an Investigation; this one is very broad and widely used), interefering with 911 (Since a large portion of 911 funds pay for radio communication, it's considered 911) etc.

I can't possibly imagine what it must feel like to be in some of your shoes, but please try and be understanding. It's not like things used to be where we could actually police. Now, when you draw your weapon (even if you don't use it)the thoughts that run through your mind is not defend my life, but I wonder who is going to sue me for this one. Or I wonder how many days I'll get off because somebody political complained.

I am glad to say that I am one of the people now, dedicated to tracking down stolen radios for our area. So before I shut up, if your constitutional rights have been violated (Especially for stupidity) SUE! I know it sounds hypocritical, but as hams, professionals, and hobbyist, we will have to defend our rights as americans. And as said in an earlier post, THANK YOU BIN LADEN! It doesn't make things right, but it can help make us safer to investigate radio posession by unauthorized and unlicensed users. There are NO simple or easy answers for this problem.

On a humorous note, here's a laugh for all of you. Recently, we had four MTX8000s stolen from our transportation division. But these guys were truely dumb criminals. They had no idea they were on a trunked system and I caught them talking on it by accident. We took the initial report and figured on them selling the radios. At any rate, I heard them on my SCANNER talking about wanting more radios so I decided to go out on a limb. I had the transportation director call one of the drivers and ask her if she got the radios out of the buses (On the radio) and instructed her to state that she put them all on the first bus beside the office. We had determined that the suspects had stolen the original radios at around 11:30pm. So at 9:00pm that night, myself and three other officers went to the Fenced area at the Transportation area and simply sat in the bus. To my suprise, these guys started talking about stealing the radios ON THE RADIO!! They arranged a drop-off, pick-up, and a watch dog nearby. These guys narrated the whole thing on the radio. The watch even repeated what he had heard on the radio earlier that day. Two guys casually walked to the bus, boarded the bus (Did I mention the bus camera was on), and grabbed two dead MTX800s. Then the guy gets on his radio and tells everybody that he found two radios and was going to look for more. I couldn't take it any more! As they stepped off the bus, I gave the signal and we arrested the thieves. One final note, their watch dog drove up to the patrol car as we were loading them to ask when the other two guys would get out of jail. I asked him to step out of his vehicle to "ID" the guys and then told him, "The same time you will"

I hope all this bull-crap can shed a little light and maybe even offer a little humor to all of us.

Thanks!

W4WTF · Post by **W4WTF** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:35 pm

nozzle 75, I see your point, but when someone driving a vehicle with state issued amatuer radio license plates and still get a hassle it is just plain stupid.

I was told by the first officer in my confrontation that there was no exemption for hams in KY law, even after I showed him the copy of the law I had with me. He had to see my amatuer radio plates when he stooped me, but his first question to me was why I had all those scanners and police radios in my van.

Another friend was told that his amatuer license was a fake and threatened with a charge of impersonating a public official because he had a ARES (amatuer radio emergency services) ID hanging from his rearview mirror and an ARES front tag. Both were issued by the county government where he lived.

A 13 year old ham in KY had his HT confiscated and was charged with possion of a police radio (is that even a crime?) and impersonating a public official because he had a SKYWARN ID. The charges were dropped, but his radio had been destroyed becaue the cops were trying to modify it to recive and transmit on public safety frequencies..... but it was a Radio Shack HTX-202, incapable of being modified.

want more ham-police stories? read here
http://www.qrz.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cg ... 1854;st=00

My 2 hobbies are guns and radios, and I have come to realize that they are two things that most cops like to act like they know alot more than they do about them, and I have come to expect to get hasseled over them by poeple who are much less familiar with the laws than I am. What a country it has become.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:49 pm

Earlier in this thread, someone quoted Section 605 of the Communciations Act. That has been repealed pro tanto by section 2511 of the Safe Streets Act, which puts in the public domain any radio communications that are (i) on Part 90 frequencies, (ii) not broadcast by a common carrier, and (iii) not encrypted. From memory, the case on point is United States v. Rose, decided about 1988 or 1989 by the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit.

The thing to do if a police officer states an intention to confiscate property on the street is to tell him, politely, that you believe that if he does so he has committed a federal offense, for which under the Civil Rights Act, he will be personally liable, and, therefore, it would be a good idea if he got his sergeant down here. If the sergeant isn't any better informed, suggest the lieutenant, and so forth.

bernie · Post by **bernie** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:03 pm

My two bits worth:
Was stopped by one of Tucson's finest about 34 years ago.
He noticed the antenna on my Jaguar MK-ll sedan, and noticed the handset on the dash. He asked if it could receive police calls. I said that it could if it had the proper crystals, which it did not.
He proceded to give me a very hard time, and thretned to consficate my
CAR TELEPHONE!
A full duplex GE DTO3DJ6 progress line technology.

Then a few years later on the island of Kauai in Hawaii, A cop gave me a very hard time because I had a police radio with me.
I had to have the chief explain to this babooze that I am their radio tech, and am authorized to use the radio he assigned to me!

Oh, I forgot to mention that my blue shirt had the Motorola logo, and my van had the full Motorola National Service decal kit
Aloha, Bernie

nozzle75 · Post by **nozzle75** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:34 pm

I'm not doubting you guys have been wronged. And as I meant to say, the statutes and laws I referenced to are appropriate in SC. Every state is different to some degree. I don't agree with law enforcement harassing you or anybody else. I COMPLETELY understand what you mean about cops pretending to know so much about radios and guns. They too are my hobbies and to some extent, both are my profession. I have guys all the time tell me what is wrong with our radio systems based on their "Extensive use" of the equipment. Ask them to describe the concept of trunking and see what kind of laugh you get. All I can say is, you have to prove that a crime has been committed. In ref to the teen that got his radio confiscated, sue and file charges for destruction of evidence. THey will tell you that the case was dropped, but that is irrelevant. It was evidence to a "crime" or else the confiscation would have been the result of illegal search and seizure.

nozzle75 · Post by **nozzle75** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:37 pm

If this is such a problem, we should make a suggestion to the ARRL, SERA, or any other "HAM" organization to form shall we say "Collective Bargaining". Remember, there are constitutional rights that we all have.

Prospect62 · Post by **Prospect62** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 6:54 pm

Most of you folks have way too much aggression built up against police officers. Saying things like "most cops barely know the difference between a Krispy Kreme and a Munchkin, let alone anything radio related" is totally inappropriate. The fact, whether radio-types like it or not, is that in some states (most states) it is ILLEGAL to have any type of radio or scanner capable of receiving police transmissions in your vehicle, bottom line. I know that is the law in New York State, one of the most anal states in the union. And should it be the case that the laws in your state are similar (most of you really have no clue what your laws read, although you beleive you do), then it is without a doubt within the authority of the police officer (again, in NYS) to impound your vehicle (if the scanner/radio is installed in same), search it for other violations (incident to arrest) and arrest you (more than likely an appearance ticket, but you could be arraigned) for your violation. It would appear to me that ALL the people here who have gripes about being "harassed" by "nazi" police officers know full well that what they are doing is illegal, but they do it anyway and have the nerve to complain. It sickens me to think that such a trained, professional and usually informed group of people can sink to the level exhibited in this thread. Your ham hobby is one thing, but those of you who are not members of public services need to know where to draw the line. And if you feel you need to monitor the police, keep it out of your vehicle. Even if it isn't illegal where you are, it IS illegal in some places for a good reason. Knowing what the police are up to is not worth getting jammed up. If you know it's illegal in your area, don't do it. If you don't know, find out. Ignorance of the law is not an affirmative defense. I apologize if this sounds angry, but I take it personally when I'm called a "nazi" and I'm accused of "barely knowing the difference between a Krispy Kreme and a Munchkin, let alone anything radio related". Good day to all, and Happy Holidays.

Post by **Code3Response** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 7:09 pm

NY aint as anal as the Republik of Kaliphornia!

firemanbatt · Post by **firemanbatt** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 7:28 pm

Guys, I just want everyone to know that I am glad I live in the flat barrren desert grassland of Kansas. Everyone, and I mean almost everyone here has a scanner, in the house, the car, or a portable! Hams have their own personal liscense plates with their call signs on them, and a truck (or car) with antennas on it is as plain as day! We have no (or at least very little) nextel here. You have one option for a cellular provider....almost everyone here can (in my opinion should) be on a volunteer fire dept, or ems, rescue or something, and has lights and sirens!

Says something for the joys of metropolitan life!

007 · Post by **007** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 7:49 pm

I'm really surprised that cops have been giving ya'll so much trouble with the radios. I can understand the AS / LAPD problem, because I know that I would be talking to someone that I saw walking down the street with a AS clipped on their belt with my division channel squaking on it. That is not something Johnny Citizen will have, therefore I understand the curiosity.

However, the fact that people are having their radios taken because the cops think they are terrorists/criminals is insane.

A few years ago I went into Canada in '94 Impala SS with 4 antenna's and motorola/icom radios with absolutly no hassle. I had the appropriate paperwork with me just in case, but received not so much as a bad look let alone any questions.

The whole issue is a double edged sword. If we have cars with big antenna's and lots of gizmos, we are going to stick out. If a cop feels like being a dick and pulls you over, you know he's gonna ask about the stuff. I found however, the police are less inclined to screw with you if you keep a low profile (i.e., NOT turning up the volume so they can hear themselves across the street - you may think it's cool, but it's not!)

My POV is set up better then most PD cars in my area, and I've not had one bit of trouble with anyone because my car draws very little attention it to itself. The few other cops that have seen it think that it's cool and some even wish they could have the same stuff!

No accusations here: I think it sucks that you guys have had the problems, but I'm guessing that you had to have done something to piss the people off somewhere along the line.

I've been in KY, SD and some other of these other state multiple times over the last 10 years, especially SD, and no one ever questioned the equipment that was in plain sight. The few times that questions have come up, they have always been satisfied with the "Amateur Radio" anwser and never pursued it further.

As a bumper I once saw says: Attitude is Everything!

wa2zdy · Post by **wa2zdy** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 7:49 pm

Prospect62 said it very well indeed. I feel as he does.

I think there is one error in his post. The FCC rules do include a federal preemption for ham equipment that also is capable of receiving public safety frequencies. Anyone with a ham license is exempt from any local or state laws prohibiting such a radio.

There's a reason this was done. As synthesised radios grew more bells and whistles, the manufacturers started one-upping each other. One of the "features" they've all got now is "extended receive," particularly 2m (144-148MHz) radios. As such, it is nearly impossible for a ham to buy a radio that is not capable of receiving public safety transmissions. Since there is no option not to have this, and hams were in fact getting busted for violating the state and local laws, FCC wrote the preemption. As such, even in New York State, a person with a valid ham license does have an affirmative defense against such a charge.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It gets murky. This debate has been raging now on qrz.com for a couple of months now. Some (many?) folks seem to interpret that preemption as applying to scanners too. I haven't seen case law on it, so I don't know what decisions have been made. It would be MY opinion that the federal preemption should/would apply only to ham transceivers that leave the licensed ham no option but to have such a receiver in the car.

Anyone who chooses to put a scanner in the car and tries to pull the "I'm a ham" preemption is just full of baloney. The scanner is avoidable whereas the ham rig with extended receive really isn't. (And that's why the preemption was put into place. As long as the 2m rigs come with extended receive already in the package, local laws prohibiting them were encroaching on the Federal juristiction over the transmitters too.)

So I think we need to recognise the difference between a ham who installs a rig with extended receive because there are no other options, and the guy who installs a scanner planning on pulling some okiedoke BS about how it's because he's a ham. That's nothing but arrogance betting on someone else's lack of knowledge. If that ham gets a big fat fine, he earned it, fair and square.

So Prospect62 missed that one. But his tone, his concerns, and his points are well made and should be well taken.

Fortunately for law abiding folks, the scanner laws in NJ were completely repealed - thanks to the hams (one in particular who I used to work for and who had a private meeting with then Gov Florio and was able to bend the governor's ear on this very subject). As a sworn law enforcement officer, it didn't affect me anyway, but still, I for one happen to believe scanners are ok in cars, until misused. Then it's time for the hammer to come down. Sadly, judges miss the target all too often with the hammer.

Good luck and good holidays to all,

Post by Pj » Mon Dec 23, 2002 11:08 pm

Well, up in my area I have not heard of such stories (thankfully!). I find that most of the problems are in small towns in which police/fire/ems are all on a common band, and such agencies allow full programming of each others freq's on everyone one's radios. I believe that it turns on a "shame on them" for allowing it.

I recently had to blast some out of town EMS yahoo's (yes, yahoo's) for transmitting on our PD1 channel because they were too stupid not to listen for our response on our EMS channel. They kept going back and fourth between both. We are our own worse enemy.

Much of our state is covered by vol depts and everyone has a radio, and most cops know this and won't give them a problem. If Mr. X who is not a member and has such high tier radios, make damn sure you cannot xmit on the public safety channels and be able to prove it. There have been some recent jamming problems, but not many that I can recall.

I personally don't know of any cops that know federal/state scanning laws or would even think about taking someone's radio (unless it was causing a problem).

Salem The Cat · Post by **Salem The Cat** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 5:33 am

Prospect62 wrote:Most of you folks have way too much aggression built up against police officers. Saying things like "most cops barely know the difference between a Krispy Kreme and a Munchkin, let alone anything radio related" is totally inappropriate. The fact, whether radio-types like it or not, is that in some states (most states) it is ILLEGAL to have any type of radio or scanner capable of receiving police transmissions in your vehicle, bottom line. I know that is the law in New York State, one of the most anal states in the union. And should it be the case that the laws in your state are similar (most of you really have no clue what your laws read, although you beleive you do), then it is without a doubt within the authority of the police officer (again, in NYS) to impound your vehicle (if the scanner/radio is installed in same), search it for other violations (incident to arrest) and arrest you (more than likely an appearance ticket, but you could be arraigned) for your violation. It would appear to me that ALL the people here who have gripes about being "harassed" by "nazi" police officers know full well that what they are doing is illegal, but they do it anyway and have the nerve to complain. It sickens me to think that such a trained, professional and usually informed group of people can sink to the level exhibited in this thread. Your ham hobby is one thing, but those of you who are not members of public services need to know where to draw the line. And if you feel you need to monitor the police, keep it out of your vehicle. Even if it isn't illegal where you are, it IS illegal in some places for a good reason. Knowing what the police are up to is not worth getting jammed up. If you know it's illegal in your area, don't do it. If you don't know, find out. Ignorance of the law is not an affirmative defense. I apologize if this sounds angry, but I take it personally when I'm called a "nazi" and I'm accused of "barely knowing the difference between a Krispy Kreme and a Munchkin, let alone anything radio related". Good day to all, and Happy Holidays.

Sounds to me like you should have failed the PD psych exam. You stake
out a "I-am-THE-Man!" attitude here and presume to take on the burden
of "protecting" the public from some yahoo with a ham radio or what have
you, in their vehicle.

The issue of being legal or illegal is something the legislature of the state
you happen to be in decided. As we all know, the winds of change in the
arena of politics will bring about changes to the law. So by definition, the
concept of legality is not necessarily based on common sense or logic.

In some states it's illegal for a man to perform oral sex on a woman. Are
you going to arrest someone for it ? Oh, forgive me, knowing your "kind",
I'm sure you would, it's "illegal".

You sicken me, you exemplify precisely what other posters refer to as
"nazi" mentality. I've known officers like this who would prosecute their
own mother! The psych screening process failed to weed out the type of
mentality that thrives on displaying and invoking the authority they are
entrusted with.

You would better serve the public by prosecuting the aggressive drivers
we all see zooming down the road tailgating the car in front of them, or
refrain yourself from feeling you're above the same law you purport to
enforce and obey the speed limits the rest of us are expected to adhere
to. How many times have we all seen a marked (or unmarked) Crown Vic
flying down the fast lane (well in excess of the posted limit), only to see
them at a rest stop diner up ahead ? I guess that Krispy Kreme donut sure
does merit a "code 3" response.

Get a clue and use some common sense, but I suspect this advice will
fall on deaf ears and be ignored, since obviously if you're willing to go
forward with impounding a vehicle over a scanner in it. You certainly lack
the judgement the public expects of it's public safety officials.

And yes, I know LEO's, and fortunately they ARE professionals who
wouldn't even waste their time on such trivial issues. They're more
into looking for aggressive drivers or DUI's. And no, I've never been
stopped for any of the issues this thread is discussing. Even if I had
been, I've got so many "get-out-of-jail-free" cards from various PD
Chiefs and Fed agencies, it's not even funny.

Wearing a badge and uniform is one thing, public respect for it is not
automatic, it has to be earned. Tarnishing the trust you've been given
by executing tasks rooted in misguided priorities does not further the
honor of the profession.

frodo · Post by **frodo** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:37 am

I just got finished reading all the stories, and realized they all have something in common. The people who gave their radios right up to the cop without hesitation, were treated with more respect from the officer, and got their radios back sooner. The one guy refused to give his up and got the living s*** beaten out of him. If a cop pulls you over dont be an ass and try and keep it. Let him have it and I gurantee you'll get it back sooner.

BTW, I have a story of my own that I'll post here.

n8uhn · Post by **n8uhn** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 12:26 am

Yep,

Most of us ham's here in Michigan carry the same doc's.

and it usually get us out of the same jams on the street
and if not the supervisor pulls up the same law and hands back the radio gear.

we are lucky in MI - the law discribes scanners as any equipment
capable of recieving police radio transmissions - and exempt's hams and radar detectors.

the law has no privision or discription of transmitting.

but scince the law states "bona fide" amateur radio operator
we must carry proof (ham wallet card, blown up copy of the same and the law!)

i cannot count how many times carrying a copy of the law solved
most problems before they started.

1 note, it seems that the Michigan State Police in northeast MI
are aware of the ham exemptions and don't even bother us about radio gear or scanners - they just ask to see your ham license.

of course any more, if being pulled over - i just grab the bag that contains - proof of insurence, all the copies of the ham info and the law then hand them to the officer with my drivers license.

Bill

KF4PEP wrote:Thats why I keep the following in my vehicle.....

A copy of my ham license (large version) in addition to my wallet card.
A copy of the FCC ruling that state scanner laws do not apply to ham radio gear.
A copy of each states scanner laws that I travel in, with the amatuer radio excemption highlighted.
My Fire Department ID.
And the complete FCC part 97 rulebook.

I was hasseled once in KY, and I was prepared because of the horror staories I had heard about KY cops and the scanner laws. The ***hole was determined to take my gear despite my documentation, and I requested he call his syupervisor over so I would have a witness. His supervisor promptly chewed his ass and let me go once he saw what documentation I had presented him.

ExKa|iBuR · Post by **ExKa|iBuR** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 3:15 am

Okay, I'll bite.

I generally don't talk about this part of my past much, BUT.

Back in 1999-2000, I was under surveillance by the RCMP (Federal Police), OPP (Provincial Police) and my local police department.

I was being invesigated in connection to arson re. a vehicle that belonged to my ex. Those charges were eventually dropped (no evidence, and the fact it wasn't me). Well, they searched my car and saw a lot of Motorola goodies, one of which had the local PD repeater in RX only.

They set me free on bail, etc... In the mean time, I was told to come into the PD station several times for questioning. I didn't have anything to hide, so it wasn't a big deal.

Anyway, they went over EVERY INCH of my house and my car with a fine-tooth comb, with anything even remotely radio related.

The only thing I had that could land me crap was a modified FT-530, but they never asked anything, because the batteries weren't really up to snuff (thank God too...)

Well, they searched my hard-drives, computer disks, etc... for ANYTHING. (I got in abit of hot water when they found things related to phreaking and hacking and that sort of thing, but they didn't worry about it much).

They even called in a tech. from Motorola to look at my stuff. Thank Goodness I kept reciepts for my stuff. As well, the tech. that did all my programming called me after he heard what happened (it was in the local newspaper), and told me that I could give his name to the Police to tell them how I got the radios programmed. So, they called this fellow, he told them the story.

Well, then the drug-cops found a radio of mine with their frequency (again, RX only). Well, that set it off. I had the drug-cops on my ass for close to 6 months. They wanted to know why a 18 year old kid had their surveillance frequencies in my radio. They were told that their radios couldn't be monitored. They used HT1000 portables, VHF, simplex, analog. heh, secure, eh?

Well, after Industry Canada gave their OKAY as to the legality of my gear, as did the Motorola guy, the let me go, with all my radio gear and such. The charges were later dropped and I thought all was well.

That whole process took almost a year (!!).

Well, I noticed that the drug-cops were following me around abit (they aren't exactly the most covert people around).. They used the same cars, same license plates, etc... And I knew exactly what the plates were. So, one day, I called up the police department, and asked for a certain officer (who's name I heard on the radio a lot in relation to the drug cops). I got his voicemail and basically told him who I am and that I didn't like his boys following me around all the time.

The next day, it stopped

Anyway. That was 3 years ago, almost.

I'm NEVER harassed anymore. Why? Because they know my story. They know that when they see me walking down the street with a radio blaring the local dispatch channel, I'm not someone to worry about. They know when they see my car with antennas on it, not to worry. In fact, now that the local department is digital, I'm sure I could even walk down the street with an ASIII and not have an issue.

So yeah, it SUCKED for a year (especially the no-radio clause on my bail), but it's over and done with. I don't hate the cops involved, they were just doing their job. And, honestly, a 18 year old with all these radios IS going to look suspicious.

One guy I know, he's 14 or 15 I believe, he's got an AS3. I can just imagine the looks he must get. That's a LOT of cash for someone to have at that age!

Anyway, Happy Holidays all!

Mike

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 9:20 am

Socialism, gotta love it.........

Maybe it's time for you guys above the border to start a little revolution.

mancow

007 · Post by **007** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 1:10 pm

mancow wrote:Socialism, gotta love it.........

Maybe it's time for you guys above the border to start a little revolution.

mancow

AGREED! That is nuts that the canadian gov't is that paranoid/concerned/upset about what private citizens choose to do.

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:58 pm

A wise man on a popular radio program here often says, "Borders, Languge, Culture". Without all three a country ceases to exist.

But anyway, enough on politics... I see way too much of that on TV anymore.

All that said, Canada still seems like one of the better places a person could live in this world.

mancow

Radio confiscation stories

Radio confiscation stories

Cops are stupid..

The cops are bad here.

Re: The cops are bad here.

LAWS & Humor

And so it goes

One other thing

Scanners

Re: Scanners