How not to install a repeater

chtucker · Post by **chtucker** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:54 pm

Motorola MSF repeater on VHF, hog tied to the vent on the roof of the county courthouse, extension cord ran, mag mount antenna, tarped AND the county pays $12 per month per radio

And yes a "moto" dealer did this.....

spareparts · Post by **spareparts** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:06 am

Please tell me that there's no LEO's or FF with their lives depending on that mess.

One would excuse that install in NO as an emergency fix to get back on the air, but from the mountain in the background, it sure aint NOLA.

va3wxm · Post by **va3wxm** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:00 am

Oh boy what a mess... but very hamsexy!

007 · Post by **007** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:41 am

Holy sh*t

Whomever did that needs to be shot.

Big Towers · Post by **Big Towers** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:58 am

I don't know about "hamsexy", as this seems to have been done by one of them their "Experts" in two-way radio. Maybe we need a site for "expert-sexy", cause I have seen more than my fair share of this kind of stuff done by the folks who claim to be "professionals"! There are Ham Systems that put "Professional" systems to shame, and there are professional systems that put ham systems to shame. Both groups have an equal share of "experts"! Neither very sexy.

At least it is an MSF, could be a Kenwood, or a Uniden, or an EF Johnson, or even a midland! See what I mean? And hell, he is making money on it.

Post by **Wowbagger** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:32 am

I am about tempted to send that to the guys in the Motorola radio and repeater groups I know....

I forget - can you see threads on Batlabs without being logged in?

chtucker · Post by **chtucker** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:42 am

http://chtucker.home.bresnan.net/DSCN0755.JPG is the direct link to the page if you wanted to forward it to some people....

No law enforecement or public safety worker's where hurt in this installation directly. It has not interefered with stuff that has about 60 feet of seperation.... yet

I went up to check the ps tower for the winter and got a little suprise. Guy is making $100 a month or so from this piece of crap and doesn't have to pay electric and no I can't find a license anywhere for it either.

I was really tempted to through it off the roof. I met the owner of the company at another site (GIANT lightening hit and his electric panel caught fire

I only blew a fuse on a power supply) and he offered me job... NO THANKS.

Howard

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:01 am

Was it the same people that did this:

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=29071

Post by **Wowbagger** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:54 am

I've sent this to the Moto guy responsible for the Phoenix/Mesa install - we'll see what he thinks of it.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:06 am

That is really really bad....

I don't think its a persons professionalism that matters anymore when it comes to bad or sloppy installs these days.

It's MONEY. The faster the unit can be put into service and making money the better. There is a local company here that has a few sites with repeaters for commercial use. Most of them are leased by large farms for field work, a radio in/on each piece of equipment. They give the option of buying or renting the equipment and make a tidy sum off the rental of handhelds and mobiles. Their sites aren't much better than that one but at least it's inside a building. They have one site that i have been to, the building has so many holes in it that they gave up on repairing it and started using duct tape and old license plates. The floor is always covered with mouse droppings and the traps always have some dead ones awaiting removal.

I guess at least they try with the traps. But you won't see them checking on the site unless it quits working. All of their sites are like that, as cheap as possible. They used to have one that was an old fridge as the enclosure at the base of the tower.

About the only thing i can say good about them is they stand behind the rental equipment and will repair/replace it same day in most cases. But then thats only because they want the user to be running up his bill rather than waiting for a repair. Not sure on what the controller at each site is, but it keeps track of air time used and thats how they bill the user, along with any monthly rentals and fees.

Post by **wavetar** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:27 am

I'm speechless...I would fire a guy in 2 seconds flat if that's what I found one of my workers doing...Are you sure he's an actual MSS, or just one of those mom & pop Radius dealers?

Todd

VA3XDJ · Post by **VA3XDJ** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:40 am

I wonder how long it'll take for dust, dirt, rust and bird nests to form in that poor assed install.

Can't say I've ever seen anything as pathetically installed as that.

Mike

chtucker · Post by **chtucker** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:46 am

nope, they are a full line dealer....

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:47 pm

I doubt it will last long wrapped up like that, no ventilation, on a potentially hot roof.

chtucker · Post by **chtucker** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:49 pm

amazingly it has been there for a year

Post by **Wowbagger** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:51 pm

OK, I've heard of people putting a mobile dual-band rig, a couple of sealed lead-cell batteries, and control electronics into an ammo can for a temporary cross-band repeater which is weather tight and reasonably robust.

And as others have said - if this was an emergency, "get-something-on-the-air-now" fix it later sort of thing, maybe.

But for the sake of all that is holy in radio, compare that to this amateur setup.

Of course, when your antennas are up 1300 feet, you need a bit more of a shack.

But STILL!

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:02 pm

Do you guys get any problems with the 146.820 machine in KC? That's one with some inredible converage too.

mancow

Post by **Wowbagger** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:17 pm

mancow wrote:Do you guys get any problems with the 146.820 machine in KC? That's one with some incredible coverage too.

mancow

Actually, just this morning there was enhancement from hell going on - we had folks in KC(M|K), down in Oklahoma, and I think from over west in our machine (and vice versa). Whenever there's just a bit better than average propagation, we get folks in KC bringing our machine up - just barely.

Of course, if folks would just USE THE FRICKIN POWER ADJUST on their radios, and actually FOLLOW part 97 (y'know, the part about "no more power than is needed") this wouldn't be quite the problem.

We are looking at a more modern controller, and hopefully we can start looking to tone the input when we do. What I would *like* to do is to set it up as I have set up other repeaters, such that the signal detect is the OR of (tone detected) and (RF level >= squelch) rather than the AND, and then run the squelch tight - that way folks near the repeater can get in without tone, and folks far away can get if IFF they are toned correctly - but few controllers have that option without some re-engineering.

kb4mdz · Post by **kb4mdz** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:41 pm

Back to the subject:

IMNTBHO, this is certainly stupid, bordering on criminal.

And if it's on a county or other government building, who, if anybody, approved this siting and then signed off the installation? Hmmm, electrical inspector for grounding, building engineer/manager for safety, what else? I mean, really, what were they thinking? No, on second thought, it'll probably get hit by lightning and then the shop will claim the site grounding itself was faulty, not the installation....then charge out the yingyang for a replacement. Pure chutzpah.

And to think the label 'professional' got applied to the installing shop. Sheesh. At least the word 'amateur' comes from the Latin 'amator'; lover and 'amare'; to love.

Please keep us up to date; inquiring minds and all that!!

Chuk G.
Cary, NC
"Stupid-Seeking Missile locked, loaded and armed and ready, Sir"
"Fire at will, then start solving differential equations in your head, just to be safe"
"Aye, aye, Sir!!"

1motoman · Post by **1motoman** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:47 pm

Wowbagger wrote:OK, I've heard of people putting a mobile dual-band rig, a couple of sealed lead-cell batteries, and control electronics into an ammo can for a temporary cross-band repeater which is weather tight and reasonably robust.

And as others have said - if this was an emergency, "get-something-on-the-air-now" fix it later sort of thing, maybe.

But for the sake of all that is holy in radio, compare that to this amateur setup.

Of course, when your antennas are up 1300 feet, you need a bit more of a shack.

But STILL!

or these Amateur repeater's
http://www.w7ara.net/web/Photo/Elden/Page2.htm

(MICOR's) They may be old, but they still work great.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:00 pm

Nothing wrong with Micor's. Great audio, beautiful squelch that many products have been made to copy, and an all around tough as hell radio.

And i see there is a Mitrek at the bottom of the stack. A UHF link perhaps? Seems like the most used application for them.

Post by **Wowbagger** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:05 pm

My contact at Motorola was suitably horrified by the pictures - " ...breaks every rule we have on doing installs...."

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:11 pm

Wowbagger wrote:My contact at Motorola was suitably horrified by the pictures - " ...breaks every rule we have on doing installs...."

HAhah, the installer must of missed that R56 addendum that removed trash bags as acceptable equipment shelters.

chtucker · Post by **chtucker** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:11 pm

trust me, no one cares really at the courthouse... I even showed the pictures. Anything on the cheap is good with them... It is a safety hazard and ridiculous waste of taxpayers money to be "leasing" a repeater on their own property with their own electric.

I told the head of the building department that he would be after public safety in my installations (6 repeaters, UHF linked paging transmitter, and 2 remote recieve sites) and he went and got the above piece o crap and 6 moto ex500s for the building dept and the courthouse janitors.

This is the work that I do:

fire_master_21 · Post by **fire_master_21** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:17 pm

Nice install and a nice piece of country to boot!!

Dan562 · Post by **Dan562** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:45 pm

WOW!! That's got to be the most unique install I've ever seen!

It reminds of a /\/\ dealership I once worked for in the Chicagoland area during the late 1980s. Of course this /\/\ dealership is now out of business .... I wonder why? Maybe he has moved out west.

Just because a 2-way radio sales and service company gets a /\/\ Full Line Sales and Service Dealership, doesn't mean the owner and employees know what they're doing with RF equipment and installations.

giguchan · Post by **giguchan** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:29 am

It looks temporary to me... I don't think that is supposed to be permannt?
at least i hope not...
Gig

giguchan · Post by **giguchan** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:43 am

wow!!!!
solar panels!!!! that's HOT!!!! ok i had to.. but the silver enclosure... what kind of temps are generated inside the cabinet?

chtucker · Post by **chtucker** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:40 am

giguchan wrote:wow!!!!
solar panels!!!! that's HOT!!!! ok i had to.. but the silver enclosure... what kind of temps are generated inside the cabinet?

Considering that the site is at 13,000 feet, I would bet that the temp never gets above 75 ambient and probably stays at a cool 65. I have tried to keep the "lower" number out of my head (lalalalalalala) but I would bet that it gets down to -40f in the winter... the repeater works still)

The top site has been set up for 2 years.

giguchan · Post by **giguchan** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:05 pm

wow...
thats very impressive!!! must be fun in the winter to get up there.... or the use of a helicopter!
Gig

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:09 pm

Nah, use a snowmobile, lol.

Very nice location up there though, i wish we had scenic spots like that around here to go "work" on.

The only problem is the bottom solar panel would be too low for animal acitivity, around here most of the trees lose their bark halfway up from the deer, i could see them rubbing against the solar panel.

giguchan · Post by **giguchan** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:25 pm

I have heard of some very remote sites in different parts of the country-and for that matter the world!!!
I do get a kick out of very remote sites.. how they work different kind of conditions that you must go through...
thanks for the reply..
Gig

chtucker · Post by **chtucker** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:03 pm

Snowmobiles don't get you there and are far too dangerous. The snow is too deep and untracked, and the switchbacks are too steep.... my ride (personal ride, works has a much nicer tucker 2000xl)

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:27 pm

Cool, an old snow cat. I know a guy that has an ex-military unit with the pull behind covered trailer that has powered tracks, they are powered by a PTO.

Nice little unit, tough as heck. I have some pictures somewhere, i should find them and share.

giguchan · Post by **giguchan** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:44 pm

Ah YES!!!! that one prolly from the "shining"!!! hahahah....Yeah i guess it would be kinda dangerous strapping an expensive piece of test gear to a snow mobile... and you are also right this machine looks safer.... and has heat inside too i'll bet!!
Gig

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:00 pm

I'd be concerned with all of the dust and dirt that will blow into the cabinet through the vents, even if there are filters. I assume it is a temporary install?

chtucker · Post by **chtucker** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:58 am

I DID NOT PUT IT THERE

I am worried about it burning down the courthouse. No GFI, extension cord ran through a roof vent, tar roof. Not to mention the desense it produces.

My job is public safety, the head of the building dept wanted a repeater. I told him it would have to wait till the end of summer, as I do 75% of my work in the warmer months. He could not wait, so he called up a moto dealer and got the above installation.

It works though

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:39 am

I was not referring to the install on the roof of the courthouse. I was referring to the leaning tower-of-pizza dealie on the top of the mountain, in the dirt.

Will · Post by **Will** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:12 pm

Astro said, "leaning tower-of-pizza dealie on the top of the mountain, in the dirt."

That is NOT leaning, that IS downtilt for better coverage!

MITYTONE · Post by **MITYTONE** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:33 am

chtucker wrote:Motorola MSF repeater on VHF, hog tied to the vent on the roof of the county courthouse, extension cord ran, mag mount antenna, tarped AND the county pays $12 per month per radio

And yes a "moto" dealer did this.....

That is a freeking mess!!!That dealer should be shot. He/she is a bloody disgrace to the profession

Equinox · Post by **Equinox** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:43 pm

Here's one for you. This is a Quantar repeater installed for an S.O. in far West Texas, on top of a 7800 ft mountain. Access was by Army Blackhawk and Texas DPS helicopters. Note the open Motorola cabinet is NOT an outdoor cabinet. I told these people over and over and over again that they needed to get an outdoor cabinet. Sure enough, as we were almost through and ready to come down off the mountain, the sheriff asks "Is that an outdoor cabinet"? Nope, but what we did was take some plexiglass and covred up all but the bottom vent louvers. The bottom vents were covred with fine screen material. I'm betting it still winds up being a big pile of corrosion way before its time.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:18 pm

Equinox wrote:The bottom vents were covred with fine screen material.

I imagine the Mechanical Engineer who used sound thermodynamic principles to design the convection cooling for this cabinet and its concatiment Quantar would just love to hear about the plexiglass covering up his circulation vents! He'd probably also appreciate the high end mounting system---a couple of old 2-by-4's on the ground.

One would think if you have the dough to spend on those beautiful solar panels and batteries (I'd guess $20,000+), the SO would authorize a few incremental dollars for a legitimate outdoor cabinet (and well engineered mounting system). Oh, well... Sure looks nice, though!

willbartlett · Post by **willbartlett** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:05 pm

1motoman wrote:
or these Amateur repeater's
http://www.w7ara.net/web/Photo/Elden/Page2.htm

(MICOR's) They may be old, but they still work great.

http://www.w7ara.net/web/Photo/Maps/State.htm

I've talked on the white tank 146.94 near Phoenix down to Yuma with 5 watts. THAT is a hell of a repeater system.

Will

How not to install a repeater

How not to install a repeater

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