starting a poll : clone rib vs.original rib motorola

[ik8dxq]

Hello everybody,
I would start a poll:
why an exact rib clone doesn't work as well as the original.
I try to be more clear : I build an exact clone of the original 4008
rib and tried to program some Saber I.
I can read the radios, but was not capable to program them.
It comes out the infamous checksum error, and the frequency table is
empty.
The same radios, with same cable, same computer ( 486 dx 50), same
alimentation, same all but an original 4008 motorola Rib are happily
programmed, and checksum error goes away.
Well, I really would have your opinion concerning where is the clone
rib wrong:
1) transistors speed?
2) transistors gain ( hfe) ?
3) transistors maximum frequency cutting?
4) tolerance of resistors?
5) low or insufficient speed of the comparator ( u003 ) ?
6) low or insufficient ripple suppression?
Any idea, also the most incredible , is very welcome.
Regards, 73, ik8dxq.
Marco

[wavetar]

1) transistors speed?
2) transistors gain ( hfe) ?
3) transistors maximum frequency cutting?
4) tolerance of resistors?
5) low or insufficient speed of the comparator ( u003 ) ?
6) low or insufficient ripple suppression?

Any or all of the above. Sometimes OEM component equivalents just aren't quite the same. Cheap capacitors can have a tolerance of greater than 20%, cheap resistors can be quite bad too.

Todd

[ik8dxq]

Hello Todd, thank you so much for replaying.
Yes, of course you are right, one, all or more of the things I mentioned.
But reaaly doesn't exist a way to replicate the original rib and build a working one?
Nobody has experienced a succesfully cloning of the rib?
It is frustrating, since with oscilloscope it seems quite all egual, signals, levels, speed.
Is our destiny to buy the REALLY expensive original one?
Marco

[Conundrum]

I've used a clone rib that a friend has, and it works great, never had a problem with programming any radio. but you get what you pay for, this clone cost almost $100, and works great. I've seen some cheap ones on ebay that I wouldn't even trust reading my radios with.

[kc7gr]

Hello Todd, thank you so much for replaying.
Yes, of course you are right, one, all or more of the things I mentioned.
But reaaly doesn't exist a way to replicate the original rib and build a working one?
Nobody has experienced a succesfully cloning of the rib?
It is frustrating, since with oscilloscope it seems quite all egual, signals, levels, speed.
Is our destiny to buy the REALLY expensive original one?
Marco

Of course not. I've built two of the Sandy Ganz units, and they both work just as well, if not better, than the Moto original.

As others have pointed out, component tolerances and quality of construction make a huge difference. Start with the fact that Sandy had the boards professionally made out of high-quality G4 glass-epoxy material. Add to that the fact that I used mil-spec 1% metal-film resistors throughout (the price difference vs. 5% carbon-film was negligible in the quantities I needed), sealed toggle switches, and mil-spec D-sub crimp-contact connectors.

Since the latter don't come in a PC mount configuration (not the crimp variety anyway), I simply used high-grade stranded hookup wire (got a spool of the Teflon-jacketed stuff from the scrap bin in the Boeing wire shop, back when I still worked there) between the board and the D-sub connectors.

Couple all that together with good soldering and construction techniques, and you've got a perfectly viable RIB at a little under half the cost of Motorola's unit.

Happy hunting.

[ik8dxq]

Oh, yes Conundrum, i can buy one and I am a lucky man to have a friend in Motorola that doesn't make questions, but I have to combat a bit against this rib
Marco

[wa2zdy]

I once ran into a RIB that worked on everything. Every software package ran great, every radio read and wrote fine. Then I ran into a Jedi radio, and HT1000. I got a serial bus error every time. That couldn't be right, I knew the thing worked fine with Genesis, GM300, Maxtrac, etc.

Then one day an MT2000 came in. No serial bus errors, but rather a tx collision error. The radio even self-tested on each attempt to read the radio, but it wasn't going to work, no matter what I did.

The cure? A new RIB.

Go figure.

[Nand]

In a post, Will suggested a change for R11 and R14 in a diagram he posted here.

http://www.batlabs.com/images/rib_mod.jpg

Also see

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.p ... b+resistor

This may be part of your problem.

Nand.

[kb0nly]

Can't go wrong with a Sandy Ganz rib. I have one, and i have built some for others. As good or better than original.

[kf4sqb]

I've built a 'parts built' RIB, mostly from what ever I had laying around, and I've never had a problem with it. Not to say I never will, but I haven't yet. I used 'pulls' from various different scrap circuit boards I have laying around, with the exception of the comparator and the voltage inverter, which I bought new because I didn't have one already. So far, it has programmed Maxtrac, Maratrac, HT1000, HT600, MT1000, P1225, M1225, CDM1250, HT1250, GM300, Radius, Syntor X9000, CP200, SP50, and probably one or two more I don't currently recall. All told, I have around $10 in the parts I had to buy, and most likely nothing in the ones I already had. Oh, and I also built on perf-board. Who knows, maybe I just got lucky and hit on the correct combination of parts.

[ik8dxq]

First of all, let me thank you for all replies.
there is one thing that makes me surprised: there isn't a common cause about not working ribs, but a series of coincidence around resistors, and other things.
I want to share my experiences:
since me too supposd about not ideal ttl or/and not ideal rs 232 levels, i build an hybrid rib:
the physical interface from>to computer is a max 232, the rest is the normal rib, taking care of inverted signals that max 232 provides!!! So I just rebuilded the normal levels trought a 7404.
This rib also is only able to read radio, but not program
then i tried with poor transistors, not rs 232 specifics compatibles, simply poor level converters...ok to read no luck to write.
Here people claiming to e able to write-read all models, other people experiencing troubles with mt1000 ( me too, I am not even able to see the data flow.....).
this give me the convintion that we have to deal with a very instable system....
I will try all the modifications you all, kind people, suggested.
But I am sure Motorola hydes something, lol.
Might be a secret.
Sincerely yours , Marco

[kf4sqb]

An instable system? Yep, that's pretty much what you are dealing with when you program Big M equipment, an instable system.....

Seriously, Motorola radios are very particular when it comes to programming. If you have access to the proper parts, there is a schematic of the actual Moto original RIB on the Batlabs site. If you use the actual parts listed, with no 'generic' substitutes, you should have no problems. The schematic and parts list can be found here. Good luck!

[magc06]

Hi all...

On it questions, I believe that fault is number six: low or insufficient ripple suppression?
On the other hand, I believe that definitively you must use the orginal R.I.B. of Motorola, because she is guarantees the best balance to it of voltages of side and side (computer and radio). ....Some radios use a single positive contact for the data... but others need two positive contact for the data and so many R.I.B. (clone) , do not provide those two positive contacts, adding of the noise and ripple problems and non-constant and non-safe voltage.

This is my humble opinion...