Deleted 2,037 Users

[alex]

Just as a general FYI --

I've been working on cleaning house these past couple of days - and I have run a few queries on the users database to eliminate some of the "fat" that the board has collected over the past couple of years.

This means that I deleted 2,037 users so far, based upon the following criteria:

1) The username was marked inactive
2) The user was not banned
3) The user did not have a rank that stated they were banned
4) The user had a website listed
5) User registered with a .ru email address and had a website listed
6) The user never posted anything

Most of this was an "and" operation, so no one here should really notice any effects of the above - just that we are short about 2,000 users.

Interestingly enough, there are an additional 3,058 users who have never posted here at all.

The next step will be to weed some of them off the board in the coming days who haven't visited the site in a given time period (probably 180 days).

So, while my goal is to try and keep the house "neater" I want to start eliminating some of our "fluff" and weeding down the population to people who are active here on a regular basis.

If for some reason you know someone who can't get online, drop me a PM, and I'll fix their account on the backend, just as if it never happened.

Eventually - probably in the next week or two, we are going to switch to a referral based registration, where you guys can simply put in someone's email address, and they will be sent a link through which they can register to become a member... This will close "open" registration down, and hopefully help eliminate some of the scam artists that have come about in recent months.

Sadly, it may also limit the number of people who will become good contributers to the board. this issue will be looked at, and discussed amongst the staff. If you have idea's, I'm open to them.

-Alex

[bellersley]

Alex, great idea but if I might make a suggestion. Instead of closing open registrations all together, how about making new users probationary. By probationary, I mean, they would not be able to post in the buy/sell threads and would have to "prove" they would be a good member to the board. On another board I'm a member of, every user starts out as a Basic user. They may apply for "regular" membership after a 90 day probationary period, at which time, applications would be delt with on a case-by-case basis. Generally speaking applications aren't usually denied unless the moderator staff has good reason to do so.

[contrak10]

yet for people like me who mostly read the board, this could prove to be a road block. Only a few times do I post, only when i need to.

[alex]

yet for people like me who mostly read the board, this could prove to be a road block. Only a few times do I post, only when i need to.

But you have 99 posts. Your account isn't going to get canned because your active....

I'm talking about the people who register, activate, and never post anything, AND who have not even visited in 180 days... You'd have to work backwards to get removed

-Alex

[alex]

Alex, great idea but if I might make a suggestion. Instead of closing open registrations all together, how about making new users probationary. By probationary, I mean, they would not be able to post in the buy/sell threads and would have to "prove" they would be a good member to the board. On another board I'm a member of, every user starts out as a Basic user. They may apply for "regular" membership after a 90 day probationary period, at which time, applications would be delt with on a case-by-case basis. Generally speaking applications aren't usually denied unless the moderator staff has good reason to do so.

Here's the problem with that - It becomes a liability point for us to approve or disapprove people based on information that we have no time to actually go through and verify. Then, what if there is a problem... who validated the info? Who spent the time to check everything? Why did this happen?

I'm not saying that we don't want more responsibility, I am concerned about the position that it would put us in. Myself, as well as other admins are annoyed when I turn on admin activation that they get 100 emails a day with spam registrations, and then we don't activate them because we don't have time to verify the info... how much does that help ANYONE out?

What can I do? Well, I can just turn on a you can't buy/sell/trade until you get 100 posts here, however, for the people who have been on here for 5 years, and have 3 posts, that also excludes them too... You'd turn in to a "regular user" at that point.

A lot of this is all or nothing. Sadly, the dates aren't stored as dates in the database, it's a PHP function specifically for PHPBB that stores this data, so I'd have to build a php interface to check dates before I can effect the changes...

-Alex

[kb0nly]

I like the idea of making a posting history requirement to have access to the for sale forum.

100 is a bit much though.. That might take some users on here over a year or better to complete. I have had great deals with some relatively new members with less than 50 posts.

However, your on the right track. How about something like 25 posts, or at least 10 posts. The ones that usually seem to be trouble are the ones that register and their very first post is a for sale item, not always of course.

But if someone was really interested in selling on here i think it would be reasonable to require 10-25 posts before being able to sell. On the same note though, is there a way that they could be allowed to read the for sale forum and PM a person who did post an item for sale? I don't see a problem if they wanted to buy something right away.

Thanks for the continued effort! Nice that your trimming some of the dead fat from the board.

I just realized how many posts i have in the last few years.. 3,120 as of this post.. Wow.. I really do spend too much time on here.. LOL

[kcbooboo]

"Eventually - probably in the next week or two, we are going to switch to a referral based registration, where you guys can simply put in someone's email address, and they will be sent a link through which they can register to become a member... This will close "open" registration down, and hopefully help eliminate some of the scam artists that have come about in recent months."

This could severely limit a legitimate person's ability to join the fun, as they may not know someone who's already on here.

Maybe there can be a hidden spam-proof e-mail address within some text somewhere on the board that people can send a request to join. It may mean some spam comes in that way, but at least it will keep the fluff out of the registration system. How many new "posting" people does the board get per month/year?

Bob M.

[PETNRDX]

As a long time member, and multiple "visits" daily, I see what you are up against.
Its your board, nobody is paying you and the staff for the many hours you spend on this.
Make it easy for you guys to keep the board as reasonably "clean"as practical.
There is really no way to keep dishonest people from getting on any board and making fraudulent deals.
Every person making deals must use the "buyer beware" approach.
All members have a responsiblity to notify other members of questionable practices. Can be by PM or direct email if worried about public posting.
If any new person really wants to become a member, let them do the work.
They can work at finding someone that is a member or whatever is needed to get registered.
There are MANY other boards that have become invitation only.
While that does make it easy, and keeps the quality high, and the honesty level very high, it does drastically reduce the number of posts on any topic.
So, someone with a rare problem or rare item is often out of luck.
Bottom line, you folks provide a valuable resource that takes a lot of your time and money.
We members should hate to lose that resource due to long time frustration on the part of the admin/staff.
Thank you.

[alex]

Excellent points - and I don't want to loose the new member/new question/new stump me of the week sort of thing. The who user registration filtering thing is time consuming on our end, and we have to deal with it.

I understand that if we were to switch to this sort of thing, we would loose that in it's entirety, and I think that would not benefit the board.

I'm obviously thinking about different ways that I can do or change this - one thing that has come to mind is to completely re-write the registration front end, so that we have our on application that is in place to manage users... The problem again, time, money, and motivation play huge keys in this whole process.

Lots to think about.

-Alex

As a long time member, and multiple "visits" daily, I see what you are up against.
Its your board, nobody is paying you and the staff for the many hours you spend on this.
Make it easy for you guys to keep the board as reasonably "clean"as practical.
There is really no way to keep dishonest people from getting on any board and making fraudulent deals.
Every person making deals must use the "buyer beware" approach.
All members have a responsiblity to notify other members of questionable practices. Can be by PM or direct email if worried about public posting.
If any new person really wants to become a member, let them do the work.
They can work at finding someone that is a member or whatever is needed to get registered.
There are MANY other boards that have become invitation only.
While that does make it easy, and keeps the quality high, and the honesty level very high, it does drastically reduce the number of posts on any topic.
So, someone with a rare problem or rare item is often out of luck.
Bottom line, you folks provide a valuable resource that takes a lot of your time and money.
We members should hate to lose that resource due to long time frustration on the part of the admin/staff.
Thank you.

[Rayjk110]

I do like the referral registration thing. Does it have to be a "valid" email? I've got a couple friends who are into Motorola Stuff who just have "hotmail"/"gmail"/"yahoo" accounts, but would a referral to one of those domains work?

[alex]

I do like the referral registration thing. Does it have to be a "valid" email? I've got a couple friends who are into Motorola Stuff who just have "hotmail"/"gmail"/"yahoo" accounts, but would a referral to one of those domains work?

You've needed a valid email address since 2003 in order to register. I don't like the stupid hotmail/yahoo type accounts, but me not liking them personally and accepting them on the board are two different things.

As long as you could get an email at that address - then you'd be good to go.

-Alex

[wavetar]

I've been a member on several boards that have a "limited" registration...most of them open it for a week or two at a time, then shut it down for a period of time. Some of them it seems somewhat random, others have a defined schedule, so if you decide you'd like to join, you have an idea of when you can come back & do it. A manual form of flood control, I guess. Just a suggestion.

Todd

[mancow]

I'm of the opinion that if you have less than 500 posts you are not allowed to sell anything here.

It seems everyone is a scam artist lately.

[JAYMZ]

Believe me, people will find a way to get registered if they really want to. Just less than an hour ago I received an e-mail asking about registration. It came in through the contact form on my personal website.

From: Josh
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:43 PM
To: k2jsv.com
Subject: Signing up for Batlabs -- contact form


Hello!
I know this may be sitting right in front of me, but how do I sign up to be able to post and what not on the BATboard?
Thanks...

Do it on a referral basis and open it up for a few days a month to allow registrations.

[txshooter]

I'm of the opinion that if you have less than 500 posts you are not allowed to sell anything here.

It seems everyone is a scam artist lately.

While a moderate post count would seem like a good idea, there are many here on the board that have bought and sold for years without any problems that do not have post counts anywhere near that high.

If the "For Sale / Trade" section was not pruned for old posts, we may have a bunch more posts listed.

Simply having a high post count does not mean you will be a good seller or buyer. I could simply go into the other forums and post trivial, meaninless things or ask stupid question just to get a higher post count....

While you may not think someone would go to this much trouble to up their post count. Just look at some of the other boards on the Net. It does happen. I for one am not in competition to see how high my post count can get.

Scott

[fire_master_21]

I'm of the opinion that if you have less than 500 posts you are not allowed to sell anything here.

It seems everyone is a scam artist lately.

Simply having a high post count does not mean you will be a good seller or buyer. I could simply go into the other forums and post trivial, meaninless things or ask stupid question just to get a higher post count....

While you may not think someone would go to this much trouble to up their post count. Just look at some of the other boards on the Net. It does happen. I for one am not in competition to see how high my post count can get.

Scott

I agree. I too have bought and sold many things here on the board as well, but to look at my post count you might not know that.

[phrawg]

I would vote for the referal thing. With over eight thousand users
the chances that someone who is wishing to be a serious
user/contributor surely knows someone who knows someone etc
who is already known on the board who would be glad to give
them a thumbs up to become a member. Then I would suggest a
time/posts criteria for selling such as say, 15 posts and 90 days
of membership. that only amounts to a post every 5 days.
For someone serious in the radio business or hobby that is not
a difficult measure to make at all. Could even establish a policy
that once one was allowed to sell, that a negative report might
trigger suspension of say 30 days after resolution, second neg
90 days after that res, and 3rd means banned. Just suggesting,
the number values may be way off. The comm business outside
of the board seems to police itself that way. Bad reps spread fast.
I would bet something similar would work here also.
My other thought would be to have an inactivity timer such that
say 4 to 6 months of no contribution would mean autopruning
and one would be notified they had 2 weeks to request re-uping
or prune would become permenant. Oh well, Thats my 1.7346828
cents worth. Maybe some may be useful in the thinking process.
The Phrawg

[bellersley]

Personally, I don't believe it to be 100% fair to deny someone access based on a low post count (what I posted above was merely how it's done somewhere else). You could have 2500 posts on here, contribute lots of good information but when it comes to money, you might be a scammer. Alternativly, you might have only been here for 2 weeks but you could be the most honest guy here.

It's always a problem on any forum to weed out the idiots and keep only the "good" users. Unfortunatly, as you've already said, the best solution is an all-or-nothing type of approach. If you deny registrations all together, you won't get any idiots registering but you'll also serve to block out decent members who would contribute.

If it were up to me, I'd take the approach where you disallow someone access to the For Sale forum for either a predetermined time peroid or number of posts. I realize with phBB that's not so easy. The other forum I was talking about uses 100% custom written software so there are lots of "triggers" that are possible.

How about something like this: If you haven't logged in for 60 days, your account gets locked (to be deleted in another 30 days), and if you haven't posted in 90 days, Seeya. That'll at the very least, keep the board open for active (or somewhat anywaY) users.

[escomm]

I think that doing away with allowing disposable email addresses will go a long way to rooting out the spammers/scammers. Any schmuck can get an email at Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail etc, and there's no way to follow that back to anyone.

Banning IPs will do little to no good given the millions of proxy servers readily available, and IP bans often end up hurting innocent people by having their access blocked alongside the bad guys. It's always ironic to see an admin brag about banning someone's subnet, only to find them posting 5 minutes later from a proxy in Uzbekistan or Russia or some other far-off locale.

Also, with regard to transactions going bad here, I think buyers taking some steps to protect themselves can go a long way. The cliche about an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure is an understatement.

-Use a credit card as often as you possibly can. Use it through PayPal, don't ever fund transactions from a balance or your bank account unless you are 100% sure that the party you are doing business with is reputable. Don't fall for PayPal's bullhooey about buyer protection for transactions funded through their bank account, it's worth about as much as a toolproofed MT. If you end up getting screwed by a seller, and PP can't recover your funds, well your credit card issuer more often than not can get the funds back.

-Insist on UPS or FedEx shipping. USPS tracking system is absolutely worthless, as it only updates once packages have been delivered. USPS is often faster and cheaper, but if you're dealing with someone for the first time it's worth it to pay a couple of extra dollars to get in-transit tracking.

-Feedback from other boards should be allowed. If someone screws someone over on HamSexy or twowayshopper, it's a good bet they will come here and screw someone. Management should make it clear that people's opinions in this regard are just that, their own. This way any liability issues for libel are covered. Obviously there will be times that this may not work out, but if nothing else it can be looked at on a case by case basis.

My $.02

[bellersley]

I think that doing away with allowing disposable email addresses will go a long way to rooting out the spammers/scammers. Any schmuck can get an email at Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail etc, and there's no way to follow that back to anyone.

Some of us don't have ISP email accounts. The only non-gmail style address I have access to is my work one, which I don't think the IT folks would take too kindly with it being "out there".

[escomm]

I think that doing away with allowing disposable email addresses will go a long way to rooting out the spammers/scammers. Any schmuck can get an email at Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail etc, and there's no way to follow that back to anyone.

Some of us don't have ISP email accounts. The only non-gmail style address I have access to is my work one, which I don't think the IT folks would take too kindly with it being "out there".

What kind of ISP does not provide email with their internet access?

[kf4sqb]

Alex, how much trouble would it be to set up something that sends a new member an email that requires a reply within a certain timeframe, or they get booted? KI4CYE and I have done this (manually, unfortunately) on a board that we admin, with resonable success. Of course, we don't have near the volume of new users on our board. Hopefully that will change soon.

[shameless plug]http://cub91.com/v-web/bulletin/bb/index.php[/shameless plug]

[alex]

Alex, how much trouble would it be to set up something that sends a new member an email that requires a reply within a certain timeframe, or they get booted? KI4CYE and I have done this (manually, unfortunately) on a board that we admin, with resonable success. Of course, we don't have near the volume of new users on our board. Hopefully that will change soon.

[shameless plug]http://cub91.com/v-web/bulletin/bb/index.php[/shameless plug]

I've been following this thread - and I'll add some comments on other people's stuff later - but i'll quickly address this one.

This is turned on here. Additionally, the site goes as far to confirm that the email address, and mx record for the mail server return valid before even letting you register - this is outside the requirement of also doing what you say - the board send the person an email activation, and then you can register...

The problem is - this leaves a lot of registrations "there" and this can include spam registrations with websites and other information that none of us want here in the first place.

I'm continuing to work on a couple of queries I will have to manually run in order to "clean" house on occasion.

What ticks me off - is that I installed 3-4 different additions meant to curtail the spam issue - and it's still occurring.

PHPBB3 is in it's 3rd beta stage right now, when they come out with an RC, I might seriously consider just bumping the board at that point to really be able to implement some of the suggestions already in this thread.

-Alex

[k2hz]

I am concerned that a minimum number of posts before being allowed to sell will lead to a lot of "spamming" of the board to run up the required number of posts. I have seen too many other boards where there is some connection between number of posts and privileges filled up with stupid "Hi I'm here posts" repeated in every topic on the board.

If it can be done without too much work for the moderators, I do think a minimum time period between registration and full privileges is a good thing.

[alex]

I think that doing away with allowing disposable email addresses will go a long way to rooting out the spammers/scammers. Any schmuck can get an email at Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail etc, and there's no way to follow that back to anyone.

Some of us don't have ISP email accounts. The only non-gmail style address I have access to is my work one, which I don't think the IT folks would take too kindly with it being "out there".

What kind of ISP does not provide email with their internet access?

There are enough people out there who are on this forum where their employer would probably not be too happy to see that they participate and help out on.

Also, some people only have internet access at work, so, that being said...

[escomm]

There are enough people out there who are on this forum where their employer would probably not be too happy to see that they participate and help out on.

Also, some people only have internet access at work, so, that being said...

That's fine, they are already registered, so existing users could be grandfathered in.

As an administrator dealing with spammers, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Anything that's implemented to combat spam is going to impact some people, there is no way around that.

And seriously, I'm boggled over what kind of ISP doesn't give out an email address to subscribers. In 13 years of being on the net I've never heard of such a thing.

[W4WTF]

How about requiring some sort of confirmation of identity, but to ease your burden set up a group of volunteers to help do so. I know I would not mind. This is jst for access to the for sale/swap forum.

I would guess half of your folks coming here are hams, a valid callsign should be enough to get them in. With the rest ask for a phone #..we all have free long distance on the cells these days, and a quick call could confirm it. Or if you have a name and location, see if it matches http://www.zabasearch.com.

Make a central database of the info used to confirm, and keep it on file in case for sale/swap deals go south.

[fogster]

And seriously, I'm boggled over what kind of ISP doesn't give out an email address to subscribers. In 13 years of being on the net I've never heard of such a thing.

I think it's an issue of whether they use the account, not whether they have it. I have one from my ISP, but haven't been able to access it in about 5 years.

a valid callsign should be enough to get them in

Sounds like a good idea, but if 'real people' are registering to post spam, it's not hard to find ham calls on the Internet. And a spammer could just put a number, get a call, and then start posting spam.

As far as post counts, here's my opinion: set it low, but not 0. Something like 10. And then, be vigilant in deleting crap posts. IMHO, if you register just to sell stuff, you don't belong here.

I strongly dislike the invite-only option, because, IMHO, we have (one of) the most useful Motorola radio forums in the world, and we're suddenly cutting so many people off from asking questions. I'm aware it's a major challenge, but I'd strongly encourage you to consider any and all other options first.

It's been years since I registered, and I don't want to register a new account just to answer my question: is a "captcha" used? Are they still effective?

Additionally, the site goes as far to confirm that the email address, and mx record for the mail server return valid before even letting you register

This sounds familiar to the code I wrote to manage spam (in the form of blog comments) on my personal site. What might work is if you started banning IPs of any accounts you deleted, and any that auto-failed (for using an e-mail with no MX record). That's what I'm doing on my site (plus some other stuff that doesn't apply to forums), and I've found that it cuts out about 98% of the crap. I still go through every couple days and delete the few that slip through, but it might make your life much easier. As far as affecting innocent people, I have two answers:
- A lot of people using proxy servers are only using them to hide shady stuff they're doing. 95% of the time, I don't mind in the slightest that I'm blocking some proxy servers.
- For the 5% that are 'legitimate' (including AOL users), I wipe out 'old' IP bans every few days to a week.

It's always ironic to see an admin brag about banning someone's subnet

Banning subnets is a really bad idea, except in the (very) few cases when I start seeing spam coming from all over a given subnet. Again, making most bans temporary also eliminates the damage.

How about something like this: If you haven't logged in for 60 days, your account gets locked

I think the big issue is with spam registration, not inactive users. And threatening to delete semi-inactive accounts might just lead to people posting crap comments to 're-activate' their account.

the chances that someone who is wishing to be a serious
user/contributor surely knows someone who knows someone

I don't know anyone on here, except people I've met here. While I might not be the most valuable member here, I for one wouldn't have been able to register if the rules were that way. (I also worry that anyone who's ever listed off-board contact info is going to start having strangers contacting them asking for invites.)

If you're comfortable coding, it might be interesting to make a little 'quiz' one has to pass. The questions would be basic enough to still allow relatively new users in, but not something that spambots could get through. ("Which of the following bands is not supported by Motorola radios: VHF, XM, UHF".) (Alternatively, it could be a 'scavenger hunt' sort of thing--link to the Batlabs page on MDC1200, and make people correctly fill out the length, in milliseconds, of a packet. This idea sounds kind of zany even to me, but it does have the advantage of making registration somewhat time-consuming, so only the really determined would get through.)

Is there a way to enlist the help of people like me, who would love to help but you probably wouldn't want to give admin access to?

(Edit: Sorry, I had no idea this came out as long as it is.)

[JAYMZ]

1st things first... KEEP THE IDEAS COMING!!

I don't think there is a perfect answer for the registration issue. I would love to see registrations left open but with that brings it's problems. Banned users returning to cause trouble, spambots and their crap, scammers and thieves. With it being closed and having a referral program you can control a little bit of that.

If registrations were to be left open and Alex gets some decent scripts to find and nuke spam accounts, there has to be more effort put into the "community" than by just the mods and admins. A little bit of self-policing, and watching of each others backs will go a very LONG way. Right now we have the report post feature, which works great, but is (honestly) only utilized by maybe 20 members at the most. Granted it only takes one person to report the post, but I let a reported post sit there for 6 hours once and watched the thread gather almost 250 views without a repeated post report. It's your forums guys, nothing wrong with being a part of it's betterment. That is why I am excited with the dialog in this thread.

Now, scammers... that in of itself is a horse of a different color. But it can also be reduced by the same concept of watching each other's backs. And when something goes south having some more happening than one of the mods or admins stepping in (generally with not much success) and ending up banning the user. The Motomax thread is a perfect example of what can be done by the users taking a little initiative. That thread may get stickied as a warning to any would be scammers that "WE" won't tolerate it. But as said before, you also need to take some precautions in these situations as well. Motomax was the first person I had dealt with in a long time that wasn't part of the "regulars" that I dealt with... and I got lazy, and have since lost $110. So, it can happen t any of us, but a little bit of diligence on our own parts can help save some headaches down the road.

Beyond that, I don't know what else to tell you guys. I am sure a reasonable solution/plan of action will come out of the suggestions posted.

[kt2728]

first of all id like to say thanks to the founders of batlabs and the members and admin staff of the batboard. this website and forum is one of the best resources on motorola products i have ever seen. scince i have been regiestered here i havent made very many posts(this primarily to keep me from looking like a complete idiot...) but the wealth of information i have learned has been invaluable. i spend most of my time on the board searching out information on radios that i am working one and shopping on the for sale/trade forum. i just bought my first xts3000's from batdude. cant wait for them to get here. sorry let me get back on topic now.

the suggestion i have would be to take an application of some sort on individuals who want to become members on the batboard. this way the admin staff can verify some information on folks before they get on here and start scamming members or wasting our time with b.s. post. this way if a new member was to scam another member the admin staff could provide contact info or try to help in another way. this may help reduce the number of new accounts that are created with someone behind them with dishonest intentions. it also may keep the administrators from having to ban freemail accounts. but what ever decisions are made by the administrators of this board lets all keep in mind that it is a privilige to be a member here and support what ever happens.

this is just my opinion, and we all know what is said about opinions...

[PETNRDX]

I am kind of sitting here wondering wether I should be insulted or not.
From what I am seeing, my value as a member, and my honesty can be determined by my getting my posts up to a fairly large number.
Which I could do very easily, since I check the board several times per day.
It appears to me that simple fixes won't work.
Rarely do they.
Its another example of when we try to legislate to protect the utterly stupid.
More laws, statutes, rules, etc.
Usually just makes it hard for the honest hard working people that use common sense in their lives.
Same applies here.
No simple fixes.
We will have to loose something for the common good.
Determine EXACTLY what you want to FIX.
Determine a fix for that alone.
If it is a simple fix, there is usually a simple way around it.
And you are back to square one.
And again, thank you for your work.
If there is a way for we users/members to help on whatever the changes are, I am willing to help.
Let me know.

[fogster]

Banned users returning to cause trouble, spambots and their crap, scammers and thieves.

and...

From what I am seeing, my value as a member, and my honesty can be determined by my getting my posts up to a fairly large number.

Not that it's in any way my place to 'direct' this thread, but something just popped into my head--I think combating spammers and keeping out scammers should be being treated as two separate issues. (I think my previous comment, and maybe those of others, kind of blended the two together in ways that didn't make sense--PETNRDX is right, someone's post count doesn't have much to do with trustworthiness, just that they're not an auto-joined spammer posting off-topic stuff.)

there has to be more effort put into the "community" than by just the mods and admins.

I, for one, would love to help, but I don't know what there is that can be done. (Short of what you mentioned: reporting bad posts.) It's just something to throw into the mix in making your decisions--I think many users would be willing to help out. (Of course, the trustworthiness of helpers could be a big issue, too.)

[JAYMZ]

I agree completely on being able to trust the helpers... and PETNRDX this is kinda for you...

The admin staff know who the people are that have "been around" and pitched in and it does not always reflect in a large post count. You don't even have to be here since the beginning to be in that category either. I think the point of post count restrictions are to keep people from jumping in and just trying to sell stuff and not really provide anything else to the community. Just a small measure to fix one problem. As it was pointed out there are 2 problems that seem to be muddled together. Both problems are being mitigated separately, and with anything "legislative" it takes a little time. The Admin and Mod team wants to see the site flourish at it's best like everyone else. But that is also why we are taking suggestions. Like I said, it's your forums... you guys deserve to have a say in what gets decided.

My opinion? I think the "community" approach would be our best bet in both cases really. Kind of a Batlabs Neighborhood Watch Program. And since I have opened my fat trap earlier, I went in and looked at the reported posts a little more carefully. Best I can tell, there were somewhere around 350 reports, called in by 65 different members. So, apparently I am wrong in thinking that only a small handful of people are taking advantage of this feature... For those that have, THANK YOU.

In the end, I would like to see what ideas people have for these 2 issues. But I also don't want to see the solution "over-thought" in any way. Keep It Simple Stupid sometimes is what works best.

[bellersley]

What kind of ISP does not provide email with their internet access?

The kind of ISP I don't have at home

[alex]

Let me address the two issues being discussed here:

1) SPAM
2) Registration, and Keeping the community "safe"

-----------------------------------------
SPAM:

At no time did I mention that I would pull active user accounts - and when I say active user account, they would have to meet the following criteria:

A) Have 0 Posts
-and-
B) Has not completed the registration process completely within X days

Having not completed the above still counts you in the system as a 'registered' user.

Now - to make it clear - As of now - I have no plans to delete an account that has made 1+ posts here. You will never have to re-register. I *MAY* consider looking at user accounts who have NEVER posted before, have completed the registration process fully, and have NOT visited the board in 180 days. So, even as a lurker, as long as you logged in the board once in a 180 day period, your account would be safe - with 0 posts. The board does track the last time you logged in to the site. I think that's pretty damn reasonable....

When a user account is "pulled" the record is inserted in to another table, and removed from the users table. It still remains in the system, but the board software can not see it. I can move this population from active to inactive, or "visible" to invisible as needed. This information is not deleted or forever lost. I may consider a 360 day retention policy on the record - but if after a year no one has come looking for it, I think it's fair game for purging.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Community Registration

Currently, in order to "register" here you need to have the following:

1) Say yes I'm over 13 years of age (this probably should be upped to 18, but that's the board default (13)).
2) Put in a valid email address (checked by MX record and querying the mail server)
3) Type in a code that is shown on the page as an image.

If 1+2+3 work out in your favor, your in, and you can do as you wish.

so let's address the thoughts posted here that stick out in my head:

---
What if we had a different form that you had to fill out that had more information on it, and the admin staff could determine if you could register here or not.

As it stands now, we can turn it on so that an admin HAS to activate your account before you can post. However, the information turned over in email is NOT informative, and doesn't reveal anything about the user. This feature is pretty much worthless - as the person can still register, however they aren't "activated" until one of us clicks on a link to do so.

---
What if a user had to put more information in about them before registering?

This gets in to a whole gray area with respect to privacy policy, as well as liability on information collected. Not many people like giving out their email address in the first place, let alone their address, phone number, and name of their first born child (I'm not saying we would ask for the name of the first born, but you get the idea).

---

What if people validated their information against their call sign?

Not everyone who works on a radio or is a member of this forum is a Ham...

---------------------------------------------------------

I get the impression from reading peoples thoughts that people do not really want to go with the whole # of posts required in order to post in for sale/wanted/trade. This may lead to forum spam (however, you guys know better than anyone else - we don't put up with peoples crapola here...) Those of you with 10 posts here and who have been here for ages, don't want to be lumped under that same bucket. I understand.

For now - trust that we as the admin staff - will simply deal with the Spam registration issue - and we will NOT be deleting "active" accounts that have posts associated with them for any reason, unless otherwise announced to the community at large.

I however - wouldn't mind refocusing this thread on actually stuff we can do within reason to "shore up" our front and make it a safer/better community for everyone.

My last point... You guys are the first line of defense in any problem. It's up to you to check people out. Get phone numbers. Make calls, post queries, use Google before sending someone a check. I can not, and will not be able to hold everyone's hand in this. I've stated so many times that it's up to you to throughly investigate what you are buying and who you are buying from before sending the money down the line. You are the first defense in seeing that through.

-Alex

[KE7DZZ]

This is probably unnecessary but here goes.

Call: KE7DZZ Class: Technician

CHRISTIANSON, ERIC J
17355 COLD SPRINGS DRIVE
COLD SPRINGS, NV 89506


Issued: 05/25/2005
Expires: 05/25/2015
Effective: 05/31/2006
Last Change: 05/31/2006

Licensee ID: L01020906
FRN: 0013516745

FCC License Reference Copy

Email: ke7dzz@gmail.com
Web Page: http://www.ke7dzz.us
County: Washoe County

Grid Square: DM09dn
Latitude: 39 deg 32 min 55 sec N
Longitude: 119 deg 44 min 7 sec W

My first born is Kassidy Jeanne Christianson
The second is Shane Edwin Christianson

I won't post my SSN, but I can PM it if necessary.
I won't post my ph#, but I can PM if you need it.

I have nothing to hide and will gladly share any info necessary.

I have very little to add to the extensive knowledge base that exists here because I am still learning and still basically don't know a damn thing, but I read A LOT.

I have a very low post count, but have completed a few deals with good results.

I just ask that you keep members like myself in mind when you do any further pruning or server-side rule making.

Thanks for your time and this great repository of information, keep up the good work.

[thebigphish]

bwaaahahah, nicely done..

I am quite familiar with what the mods are fighting with, the boardspamming issues and such with phpBB. I have set my board for our agency with the following criteria for membership

1) valid email confirmation (via bounceback and confirm method)
2) admin approval of confirmation
3) image recognition - although i like the datamining idea of the MDC-1200 page on the batlabs thing (that's funny as hell, and quite a good idea - although if Mike B. is probably sitting there quitely pissed off that we didnt' bring up the Spectra page - which he knows in it's entirety, as well as his site )
4) php mods for not allowing profile entry, website entry, or any of the spammables until a modest post count is hit (i chose 10)
5) php mod for hiding of postcount lesser than 1(to hide inactive users) from user lists & lookups
6) killing of accts that sit for greater than 45 days w/ postcount <1

and that works for us.

no more spam....

in terms of the honesty part about people just being shmucks, there is not hing you can do about that....other than prophylactic homicide...

[txshooter]

This is slightly off-topic, but maybe a idea we can work on. I would even volunteer to handle the workload that could be involved with this.

We should have a searchable database or at least a posted listing of all banned members from the board and why (brief reason) they were banned. This list could include the User Name / Names they have used. Other email addresses they have used, eBay identities they have used, phone numbers and ect. You get the idea. This would be a living post that maybe one or two people were resposible for keeping updated. While we do have a great Feedback section, it would be a living document. Yes, this could get long and drawn out, but could be a useful resource. In addition, while we have a feedback section for Batlabs and I understand the reasoning behind keeping this feedback section primarily to deal completed here, maybe we could add an additional feedback section for information on bad deals completed elsewhere. I would venture to guess that most of us that buy, sell, or trade here also do so on other forums and eBay. This would give our members a oppurtunity to give information on bad dealings elsewhere to protect our members when they are dealing other places.

Just a few thoughts.........

On that line..

If we had a section for reporting bad or good deals elsewhere that would be nice for more than just helping others avoid the same mistake on that other location, but also in case that seller made it here they would already be known to be good or bad.

I missed that thought in my orginal post...thanks for bringing it up. It brings up a really valid point. Even though the internet community is huge and our community is growing larger and larger every day, but how many times have you been working a deal on something from another site or even eBay and found out that the person you were dealing with was also a member of this board. It has happened to many more times than I can count. And for many of us, knowing you are dealing with another Batlabs member has always given us some sense of security. Especially when we found out that it was another established member of the board. Batlabs has become in my opinion the best resource out there for information regarding Motorola Radio Equipment and a great place to buy, sell, or trade equipment. Let's all work together and try to keep it that way.

We have just been hit hard by one person that scammed many of ou=r members, but this is not a daily happening here as it is on many other boards and eBay. We have established ourselves as a community. Most of us have never met each other and probably never will, but that does not make us any less of a community. How many times have you dropped something you were working on to help another board member out, most of the time at no cost. Most of us have done this. We have a great community here. Let's keep it that way. Keep your ideas flowing and maybe even hlp out the board a little bit everyonce in awhile....

For those of you that have not ever donated anything back to the board, maybe send a couple of dollars over to help out once a year or so. Imagine if every member of the board (what 8000 or so) gave just one dollar a year to help support the board? Just some more food for thought.

This has been a free resource for all of us for a long time, maybe it's time to give back a little more. How much would $1.00 or even $2.00 per year hurt any of us to give to the board for all it does for us. Maybe this could be a requirment for access? What do others think about this? Imagine what this could do in helping pay for upgrades that may be needed in the future?

[kb0nly]

On that line..

If we had a section for reporting bad or good deals elsewhere that would be nice for more than just helping others avoid the same mistake on that other location, but also in case that seller made it here they would already be known to be good or bad.

Lots of interesting ideas. Nice to see how much everyone is concerned about the batboard. I have only one deal that went bad on here in the years i have been a member, and that cost me a grand total of $15.

[Will]

Jamez writes: Right now we have the report post feature, which works great, but is (honestly) only utilized by maybe 20 members at the most. "


Yes I do use this very good feature, but it does not accept more than one report for the questionable post.

Will

[alex]

Jamez writes: Right now we have the report post feature, which works great, but is (honestly) only utilized by maybe 20 members at the most. "


Yes I do use this very good feature, but it does not accept more than one report for the questionable post.

When a post is reported once, it'll get looked at by a moderator or admin... There's no need to submit more than one request.

Almost all report posts are handled here within a couple of hours. If the requested action wasn't taken, it's because whoever reviewed the post felt the requested action by the user didn't violate a rule, or we didn't think it needed the requested action, then it may not change as requested.

-Alex

[nickjc]

just an observation...mostly to alex and other's in that echelon....

while hanging out more often than not on another webboard of a COMPLETLY different nature than this one....that is a community as well........I have found to kinda like the tact that they take....

while it is admirable to keep this line of communication to the population open....close it down....really i mean it....YOU need to set the parameters of operation...YOU need to set the rules....dont let the inmates run the asylum...

Those that want to be hear....will be....

Those that can contribute...can and will....

Those that WILL try to scam....will.....make it hard for them to do so

Those that WILL try to cast a bad light will....make it hard for them to do so..

You have a duty to make this community as safe as it can be...in ALL aspects....

You need a brutal ZERO tolerance policy...and implement it...and also a VERY nasty undertaker....

just some thoughts...

Later

Nick

[techie]

A couple of thoughts..

Could the account creation be altered to something like this:

user registers w/valid email, image recognition, etc.

user gets email with url, has to go to this page and do a second image recognition step.

at this point the user is probationary for the first 30/60/90 days, and X posts.
The user would have a big checkbox (or two) where established users can alert on the user,
which would, after a small number of unique votes, lock their posting abilities and hide
their posts pending admin review.

maybe a couple of checkboxes, one for Spam, and one for meaningless_drivel, which
would mark that post as not counting towards non-probationary status. That way, if the
user just posts "hi i'm here" type posts, they can be negated and hidden by the membership
as a whole, and maybe get a automated "you're being stupid" letter, and a temporary account lock.

maybe a button for meaningful_post as well.

Have a function available to established members where they can vouch for a new member, and if several established members vouch for you, you get off probation early. Make this function available thru the profile settings, or similar, not out in the open. If this function is used, it gets noted in the profile, as well as the userids of the members vouching for the new member. Or maybe you don't get off probabtion early, but you get a flags by your ID noting that members have vouched for you.


Probationary status would require at least Y meaningful posts within the probationary period, or the period would continue until Z posts are reached.

So say, you need 10 meaningful posts to get off probation, or at least 3 in the first 90 days, or 6 total after 90 days has past.

[nickjc]

A couple of thoughts..

Could the account creation be altered to something like this:

user registers w/valid email, image recognition, etc.

user gets email with url, has to go to this page and do a second image recognition step.

at this point the user is probationary for the first 30/60/90 days, and X posts.
The user would have a big checkbox (or two) where established users can alert on the user,
which would, after a small number of unique votes, lock their posting abilities and hide
their posts pending admin review.

maybe a couple of checkboxes, one for Spam, and one for meaningless_drivel, which
would mark that post as not counting towards non-probationary status. That way, if the
user just posts "hi i'm here" type posts, they can be negated and hidden by the membership
as a whole, and maybe get a automated "you're being stupid" letter, and a temporary account lock.

maybe a button for meaningful_post as well.

Have a function available to established members where they can vouch for a new member, and if several established members vouch for you, you get off probation early. Make this function available thru the profile settings, or similar, not out in the open. If this function is used, it gets noted in the profile, as well as the userids of the members vouching for the new member. Or maybe you don't get off probabtion early, but you get a flags by your ID noting that members have vouched for you.


Probationary status would require at least Y meaningful posts within the probationary period, or the period would continue until Z posts are reached.

So say, you need 10 meaningful posts to get off probation, or at least 3 in the first 90 days, or 6 total after 90 days has past.

No Offense intended, but,

* YAWN *....

Need I state more....

[Bat2way]

What is NOT needed:

More red tape and an attitude that intelligence = number of posts.

[techie]

Ok.. I'm not intending to weight the system down with too much red tape, but rather trying to take a couple ideas and put them together..

One idea is the flagging system used on craigslist, where the users can flag a post, which is automatically acted on after a certain number of hits.

Another is the concept that a spammer or bozo is going to show their true colors in the first couple of posts, so if we have a window of time where the users can rate the newcomers up or down, we can help weed out the chaff early on. We may not be able to do much about scammers. except to make sure that they have participated enough that we have a general feel for them.

[W4WTF]

One thing, don't ban everyone just because they go idle for a few months. Whne I got deloyed radio was one of the farthest things from my mind and I pretty much stayed away.

[alex]

One thing, don't ban everyone just because they go idle for a few months. Whne I got deloyed radio was one of the farthest things from my mind and I pretty much stayed away.

Again - this isn't the goal.

The following will be the criteria where the account would get "pulled"

1) It is not active
2) It has 0 posts linked to it
3) It is not banned

That's as it stands right now. Anyone on this board who can log in and has 1 post - has no problems, and will never have their account deleted.

You don't meet any of the above criteria - and it would never be an issue for you.

I'm not looking to take you haven't visited in the last 90 days and you have 100 posts, and yanking the account - that is *NOT* going to happen.

Comments on a couple other suggestions after the break.

-Alex

[Bat2way]

the users can rate the newcomers up or down, we can help weed out the chaff early on. We may not be able to do much about scammers. except to make sure that they have participated enough that we have a general feel for them.

Elitist BS. Who are you to rate anyone? Yes, you are a USER here, an individual of one, responsible for your OWN actions, nothing else.

[firemed9]

Gentlemen and ladies,
I come to this board 2-3 times a day, but rarely post. I have been able to take a lot of very good information from this board and use it. I can say fairly safely that I don't know any one on this board outside of the board itself. If the board was a referral system when I joined, I wouldn't have been able to be here.
That being said, I feel that a referral system is not a good idea for such a valuable board that contains information that is not typically available on other sites.
As for Alex's idea of cleaning out the dead weight that come visit the board any more. That is a great idea.