Programming Time

motofreak008 · Post by **motofreak008** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:18 pm

I had two radios taken in to a radio shop to get programmed today. I took a Maxtrac 100 and a HT1250. I did not get them back today, they said they did not have enough time. They were taken in at 3:00 and the shop wanted to close at 4:00. How long does it really take to get two radios programmed?

Pimpala03 · Post by **Pimpala03** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:28 pm

Depending on what's getting done. If they could drop what they were doing and start on them at three, they probably could have finished by four. You don't want to rush it, though. That's when mistakes get made.

kcbooboo · Post by **kcbooboo** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:20 am

I doubt your programming changes were a life-or-death situation, so the radios would enter their system and get done "in the order they were received" along with all the other items they got during the week.

If you walk into a barber shop and find 2 barbers and 12 people waiting, would you expect to be out in an hour, especially if they want to close early due to the holidays?

It could have taken only an hour, but you probably don't have any control over when that hour is available.

Bob M.

bellersley · Post by **bellersley** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:53 am

I took in a GTX to get programmed with 6 conventional frequencies back in the day. It took 3 weeks. That if you ask me was excessive, but I could certainly understand a few days, possibly even a week.

RFguy · Post by **RFguy** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:37 am

Our shop it would run about 2-days. We always do a full spec check and alignment on each radio so we allow 1/2 hr per radio.

Our techs are not sitting in the shop just waiting for you to walk in, they are working with a normal backlog. Now, if you phoned ahead, made arrangements and a time slot was alocated we could have them done in a morning, or an afternoon.

HLA · Post by **HLA** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:09 am

if they already have the codeplugs and just have towrite it to the radios they can be done in 10 minutes. but if they have to type everything in manually it could take a couple hours just to do the 1250. just depends on how many channels they have to do?

wa2zdy · Post by **wa2zdy** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:46 pm

Yep, typing that stuff in from a list and double checking to avoiding mistakes is tedious at best. You wouldn't enjoy doing it.

motofreak008 · Post by **motofreak008** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:12 pm

I never have programmed a radio or seen it done. What is involved?

KE7DZZ · Post by **KE7DZZ** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:29 pm

motofreak008 wrote:I never have programmed a radio or seen it done. What is involved?

A lot of typing, and I do mean a lot. It takes me almost two hours to program an MCX1000 with all the modes and other info.

Pimpala03 · Post by **Pimpala03** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:43 pm

For just conventional channels you have to type in:

[list]Rx Frequency, PL Tone
Tx Frequency, PL Tone
Channel options, ID, Signalling, etc.[/list]
x how ever many channels you have.

You can't rush these things, if you want them to be correct, you have to look over each one several times and make sure it's 100% accurate or it may not work correctly.[/color]

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:50 pm

When I got my ASTRO Saber, it took me about four hours to program and verify about 200 modes, with various signalling options, scan lists etc, and I can type PDQ.

Bruce1807 · Post by **Bruce1807** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:46 am

If someone bought a radio into my shop for programming on the 22nd it would be ok see you next year then!

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:37 pm

Two other factors to consider, which will explain why radio shops hate to do radio programming:

First, it doesn't pay for itself. In terms of tech time required, you simply can't bill the customer at the actual tech's time charge times time required. So what you do is use programming to fill up otherwise unsold down time.

Second, it is a major source of customer dissatisfaction. I don't care how good a tech or how good a typist one is, there will be mistakes made. I don't care how good a proofreader one is, some of the errors will get past you. This tends to make programming (at least initially) an iterative process. This is find for a self-maintainer, but it irks customers no end.

And I should probably add a third factor: customers never specify what they want. Sure, you may get freqs and tones, but there are a bunch of other factors that have to be specified -- and what they are and what the options are varies widely amongst the models of radios -- and inevitably the programmer gets to the point where he has to guess. And as like as not, his guess has not adequately read the customer's mind. More do loops; more customers who think the shop is peopled by idiots.

d119 · Post by **d119** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:34 pm

RKG wrote:Two other factors to consider, which will explain why radio shops hate to do radio programming:

First, it doesn't pay for itself. In terms of tech time required, you simply can't bill the customer at the actual tech's time charge times time required. So what you do is use programming to fill up otherwise unsold down time.

That's not so much true anymore... This is why people wonder why some shops charge $75+ to program a radio. It's the only way to make money on it.

bellersley · Post by **bellersley** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:07 am

Yep. Like syntrx, I can type really quick. In my aptitude test for my current job, my average of 3 tests was 80wpm. That said, if I'm programming an Astro Spectra from scratch it's going to take me several hours. I think the longest I've spent programming a radio was a GE/Ericsson Orion. I did a programming job for a friend who wanted it "maxed out" for the 2m ham band. There were probably close to 1200 channels in the sucker, it took me well over 8 hours of pretty much non-stop work.

If you want a radio done "now", be prepared to pay a LOT of money for it. If however, you want it done on a budget, expect to wait awhile.

jhooten · Post by **jhooten** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:39 am

Pimpala03 wrote:For just conventional channels you have to type in:

[list]Rx Frequency, PL Tone
Tx Frequency, PL Tone
Channel options, ID, Signalling, etc.[/list]
x how ever many channels you have.

You can't rush these things, if you want them to be correct, you have to look over each one several times and make sure it's 100% accurate or it may not work correctly.[/color]

Plus assign functions to buttons, build scan list, set channel options like power level, TOT, 25 khz or 12.5khz, talk around, and a bunch of other little small details.

Bruce1807 · Post by **Bruce1807** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:55 am

When I worked at an MSS in the UK we were not interested in single jobs like programming.
We used to ask for a copy of the license and that was usually the end of that. My boss used to give hams such a hard time on the phone it used to crack us up!

Post by **escomm** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:19 am

Bruce1807 wrote:When I worked at an MSS in the UK we were not interested in single jobs like programming.
We used to ask for a copy of the license and that was usually the end of that. My boss used to give hams such a hard time on the phone it used to crack us up!

hehe, it's attitudes like this from the big boys that have landed me some very good customers

Bruce1807 · Post by **Bruce1807** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 3:28 pm

sure. It's always going to be a niche market.
But we didn't have time,
we had hundreds of contracts and over 4000 rental radios out

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:29 am

Programming is really easy money for a small shop. You can pay your apprentice $6/hr to do it, and bill it out for the full rate.

Tony Soprano · Post by **Tony Soprano** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:22 am

In my opinion, programming, especially complex public safety programming, is best left to the most competent person in the shop. That person may cost more in salary/benefits, but that person can also minimize customer dissatisfaction. This is a great post, it sheds light on the business of a shop vs "it should only take 30 minutes even though I wasn't here first".

bellersley · Post by **bellersley** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:17 am

At the local shop in town that does all the tow truck radios and what not, they have a generic codeplug for just about every radio that they just clone/dump/shove into whatever radio the customer brings in. The operation takes them all of 5 minutes, but they charge $65 for it. Good business for them, they're always busy with that kind of thing.

Bruce1807 · Post by **Bruce1807** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:42 am

I think you also find that a full MSS will not program public safety channels into radios bought in by Joe Bloggs etc without the proper documentation.
An MSSS can't afford to lose the MSS status as well as what public safety contracts he has , whereas a dealer has not done anything Motorola would be interested in, however the PS agencies might be interested.

Dorpmuller · Post by **Dorpmuller** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:22 am

mr.syntrx wrote:Programming is really easy money for a small shop. You can pay your apprentice $6/hr to do it, and bill it out for the full rate.

Now you know why I quit the radio business-each job I went to was worse than the last. The stress and other problems finally put me on permanent disability. Wouldn't wanna work for you!

Sorry, but that comment got me, having been on the brown end of the stick working for a$$holes.

Rich

bellersley · Post by **bellersley** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:55 am

I agree that paying someone $8 an hour or what have you to program radios is BS. However, there will always be people more than willing to do the job. It's the same with Security Guards or Construction Workers. The pay definatly does suck, but there are always people willing to work for whatever pay is offered.

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:07 pm

That's first year apprentice wages, ie probably a 16 year old just out of school. Public safety programming is one thing, but programming one or two modes into a bunch of GP328's for the local mall, the kind of programming most shops do, is trivial.

Don't know how they do it up your way, but radio techs over here, just like any other trade, get qualified over the course of a four year apprenticeship (hence the reason I mentioned the apprentice), which is a mixture of classroom environment, technical college stuff and on-the-job training. Apprenticeship pay is lousy - that's just how it is. When they're fully qualified, they get pretty decent cash.

As for construction workers, my sister's SO is a builder's labourer. It's hard work, but he makes $25/hr, or about $60,000 a year (0.75 of that will get you US dollars). At the moment he makes more than I do, in the communications security field.

EPC_1111 · Post by **EPC_1111** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:35 pm

mr.syntrx wrote: Don't know how they do it up your way. . .

I sometimes wonder that myself.

bellersley · Post by **bellersley** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:48 pm

mr.syntrx wrote:Don't know how they do it up your way, but radio techs over here, just like any other trade, get qualified over the course of a four year apprenticeship (hence the reason I mentioned the apprentice), which is a mixture of classroom environment, technical college stuff and on-the-job training. Apprenticeship pay is lousy - that's just how it is. When they're fully qualified, they get pretty decent cash.

As for construction workers, my sister's SO is a builder's labourer. It's hard work, but he makes $25/hr, or about $60,000 a year (0.75 of that will get you US dollars). At the moment he makes more than I do, in the communications security field.

I was offered a job at a radio shop in western Ontario, with no experience or education at $9 hour. I know a few techs who are responsible for maintaining large public safety smartnet and smartzone systems who aren't making more than $15/hour. Up here unfortunatly, it just does not pay.

Typical construction worker rates are anywhere between $8 and $15, depending on skill and trade.

Post by **wavetar** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:51 am

bellersley wrote: I was offered a job at a radio shop in western Ontario, with no experience or education at $9 hour. I know a few techs who are responsible for maintaining large public safety smartnet and smartzone systems who aren't making more than $15/hour. Up here unfortunatly, it just does not pay.

Typical construction worker rates are anywhere between $8 and $15, depending on skill and trade.

Have times changed that much in Ontario? When I attended electronics school in T.O. over 12 years ago, we were being offered $10/hr just to be cellular installers. I myself made close to $30K after a few years, before I had to move out east & take a significant pay cut. Even with that, I now make close to $50K out here, along with a company vehicle. When I last talked to a couple of techs from Ontario while on course at Motorola, they were making approx 30% more than me for the same job.

As far as programming goes, we have a standard rate of $25 for up to 16 channels. Anything beyond that is hourly at $65/hr. We guarantee it's done correctly, and will make any necessary changes (even if it's a result or incorrect/missing information from the radio owner) for free. We do however do it on a "first in/first out" basis...it waits in line with our regular repair log, unless prior arrangements have been made.

Todd