New Radios for FIREFIGHTERS---Help me do a presentation

firefighter2000 · Post by **firefighter2000** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:25 pm

We currently have a supply of older SP50 ten channel radios that we use (when they dont die) for fireground communications. They are currently held in a pouch on the side of our airpack straps and an in-mask integrated communications system. I suggested (due to the unreliability of the SP50's) that we need to purchase new radios... mostly for OUR saftey. Tonite, I recieved THIS email...

I want you to put together a presentation that you & I will present to The Chief on the purchase of new radio's. You need to have it ready for me by Nov. 29th & we'll present it on Dec. 5th. This should be very professional, I want life safety issues (the more the better), two different types of radio's you recommend with at least 2 comparitive prices on each. have all the advantages as possible (remember you are trying to sell something) don't talk bad about the SP50's just list the problems due to age and list how the other radio's out perform. If you need/want me to help you let me know.

Anyone and everyones two cents is wanted.
I think the radios need to be firefighter proof... and simple to use. They should be basic, and tough.

Thanks to all>
Craig

Post by **Grog** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:41 pm

Are these radios still only going to be used for fireground ops? What band? How many channels do you need? Any repeaters or just simplex?

I used a SP50 for a few years in business use, but after this many years of firefighter abuse, I bet they have seen much better days

I know it's not /\/\ sexy, but If they need to keep costs to an absolute minimum. One thing I can think of is the standard/horizon HX370S VHF HT. It's about $110 brand new, waterproof, and you could even lock the ability to change anything but power and volume. If it's just for fireground use, (and that really should be simplex anyway), then they should work as well as a lot of other stuff.

They will do CTCSS & DCS, but not QCII or MDC1200.

firefighter2000 · Post by **firefighter2000** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:54 pm

These radios are currently in a pouch on the airpack strap. They are connected via remote microphone cable directly to the airpack, and the transmit is dont via a button on the side of the console on the airpack. The "console" has a microphone that projects the users voice when speaking, and to the radio (transmitting) when the side button is pushed. We currently have the two pin connections, and would prefer to be able to continue to use them, if possible.

Does anyone know how long SP50's have been around? Also, what can be said about SP50's as far as durability... Arent they "business" radios. Not firefighter radios.

Post by **escomm** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:58 pm

As far as Motorola solutions go, I would recommend you look at the PR860. It should outperform any expectations your management should have if you've been using SP50s for so long.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:39 pm

I've been dealing with this for some time now. A few things I've picked up over the years.

Firefighter friendly is HUGE! That means everything from how you turn it on and off, how you change channels, how you know what channel you are on, how the channels are lined up, and how easy it is to screw up. First and foremost, the radio must have a 16 channel rotary with stops at 1 and 16. Continuous rotary is unacceptable. Program your primary fireground as channel 1 and channel 16. If a firefighter is ever lose, disoriented, and/or his radio gets fumbled, all he needs to do is turn the knob until it stops and he is on the channel he needs to be on. If you utilize multiple zones, then duplicate 1 & 16 on all the zones. Big channels knobs with firm notches for each channel are a must when using gloves and prevents accidental channel changes. These designer knobs with soft little bumps are useless.

Top displays are more functional than front displays. The only way to see a front display is to pick the radio up and look at the front. You can see a top display just by looking down at it. We carry these things on straps or in radio pockets. Not having to pick them up is a big deal. If you have a lot of different channels that will be used frequently a display is a great thing. If not, then don't worry about it as along as you can attach a list somewhere. Motorola doesn't make any top display radios anymore, they went away with MTS2000 unfortunately. It is front display or no display. Kenwood makes the 90 Series which uses a top display. Highly recommended. If you have chief officers who don't play interiors, they are good for full display radios that can decode PTT-ID & Emergency.

Pointless features are pointless. An XTS3000 can do a lot of neat things. Most of them are useless to us as a rural or suburban fire department. In fact, most of them are useless even on a major urban trunking system. Don't program the features you don't need; all that will do is confuse people can tempt people to push buttons and screw everything up. Really, all we need is PTT, Scan, backlight if you have a display, and emergency if you use emergency.

Durability is important. A radio intended for business use has no business on the fireground. Would you take a Honda Civic off-roading in the mud? No. You need a radio designed and intended for fireground use. That means all the mil-spec standards, resistant to water, vibration, and beating. It also needs to have accessories that hold up to the same abuse.

The Kenwood 90 Series portables kick arse for this. I have about 40 of them in use and they never fail us. Super FF friendly and they have a top display. For Motorola, you've got the PR1500, MT1500, and XTS Series.

MT2000 man · Post by **MT2000 man** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:17 pm

I remember the SP50's being around in the early 1990's (like 1992 or 93'). If you are using those radios for Firefighting now, and you get a new radio (be it an XTS1500, XTS2500, the new PR1500, etc) you will be VERY pleased. The SP50 was a business radio, not a PS radio, so any new current radio will be worlds different then the SP50 both performance wise, and ruggedness in general. Since you would have to buy new I would recommend the XTS2500 series radios. Excellent radio, small, rugged, and a perfact radio for any Firefighter. Stay clear from the Waris series (HT1250, HT1550, etc) for firefighter use. The Waris series has TONS of features, but are not too durable, the audio is not nearly as clear as some higher grade radios, etc. Too bad the MTS2000's were still not being produced, those would be perfect for your application. When and if you do go with a Motorola Flashport radio (any XTS series) keep your flashcode simple. The easier it is, and the less features it has (except for any future upgrades your radio system might have) the better. A simple flashcode is always a good idea, especially with a radio system with many users.
Take some time, and brouse around the Motorola website, and look into what they currently offer for radios, and then go from there.
Let us know how the presentation goes!

jmr3865 · Post by **jmr3865** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:33 am

I would go with the Kenwood protalks. Yes, they are business radios per say but they are simple stupid. 16 channels, no display to get wet. My FD uses them with no problem. and I think they have the regular 2 pin connectors.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:49 am

Well, first of all you must not know kenwood very well. Not all of their radios use that stupid two-prong connector. Only their cheapos and the x50, x60 and x70 series I believe use those. The x80 and x90 series radios use a nice beefy connector similar to Motorola's jedi and XTS style. They lock and seal. Two-prong speaker-mic connectors should NEVER EVER EVER EVER be used on any fireground radio. Doesn't matter what brand it is, don't do that. That is sure fire sign that the radio is not designed for the kind of use and abuse were subjecting it to. Way too easy to break, fall out, leak, clog, and fail.

We are talking about going into burning buildings here. Our lives depend on these radios. Other people's lives depend on these radios. I don't know about you but I couldn't sleep at night if I issued someone the equivilent of a children's toy walkie-talkie as a life-safety device to rely on.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:05 am

nmfire10 wrote:Well, first of all you must not know kenwood very well. Not all of their radios use that stupid two-prong connector. Only their x60 and x70 series I believe use those. The x80 and x90 series radios use a nice beefy connector similar to Motorola's jedi and XTS style. They lock and seal. Two-prong speaker-mic connectors should NEVER EVER EVER EVER be used on any fireground radio. Doesn't matter what brand it is, don't do that. That is sure fire sign that the radio is not designed for the kind of use and abuse were subjecting it to. Way too easy to break, fall out, leak, clog, and fail.

We are talking about going into burning buildings here. Our lives depend on these radios. Other people's lives depend on these radios. I don't know about you but I couldn't sleep at night if I issued someone the equivilent of a children's toy walkie-talkie as a life-safety device to rely on.

Preach on.

Protalks belong in the hands of some mall security wacker like Ray. Real firefighters need real radios. I'd suggest looking at the low end XTSs (1500/2500), Kenwood x180s, Kenwood x90s, possibly Vertex VX900/920/etc.

One of the PDs I work with has been using P1225s with the crappy two-prong speaker-mic connector. About once a year, the radios required repair, as the cumulative stress on the connector would cause damage to the logic boards. They've recently switched almost entirely to Kenwood TK-7180s, and have been completely pleased with the change. Yes, the 180s have a continuous rotary, so no indexing to find your channel. We solve that a different way - the speaker mic has two buttons - for fire, orange is dispatch and black is fireground... for PD, dispatch and tact.

aaknitt · Post by **aaknitt** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:39 am

One advantage of newer radios versus your SP50s is channel capacity. While you may think that the radios are "just fireground radios" and therefore don't need many channels, when a large incident occurs you'll be wishing you had all of the federal and local interop channels available. In Illinois, the Emergency Management Agency's interop guidelines specify a minimum of 48 channel capacity. This allows room for local fireground channels, statewide interop channels, and the federal VCALL/VTAC channels. I'm not sure if your state has similar guidelines, but it's worth looking into.

I'm not that familiar with the SP50, but if it's not narrowband capable, that's another benefit of new radios.

New radios designed for FF use are MIL-SPEC and/or IP rated for water and dust resistance. You can compare the ratings of the new radios with the SP50 to see if there are any advantages (although the SP50 is pretty tough).

If the old radios are still working well, there probably aren't many life-safety issues, other than the potential unreliability of the 2-pin type mic connector. A life-safety advantage of new radios is the ability to use MDC signalling to determine which unit is calling and to do "Emergency Button" signalling. These features all require training, though.

A few materials that might prompt some more thoughts for your presentation:

http://radioetcetera.googlepages.com/radiotraining

Good Luck!

Andy

Post by **firefighter13669** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:01 am

WELL I know alot of people wont like me saying this however,If you want a good radio that is great for the fire service you could also look at the Icom F33G or the Icom F 3061 both radios do MDC-1200 encode decode alias stun kill and messaging,Quick call 2 encode/decode.Kenwood also is making great portables also for the cost and the life of the radio I would recommend Icom or Kenwood.

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:08 am

In lieu of bantering back and forth which radio is better for your application, which is a waste of time, a generic bid specification needs to be developed to identify the needs of the user. This can be merged in a powerpoint which would list the salient details of each brand of radio along with approximate pricing.

As a very experienced government buyer, the Chief couldn't care less about the "actual model number". He just wants to make sure that the tool (radio) will do the job required to include keeping the user safe by providing him with reliable communications.

There are tons of bids on the web, just do a search and do some reading:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... radio+bids

Elroy Jetson · Post by **Elroy Jetson** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:41 pm

SP50s are totally out of date, and may not even be supported by Motorola anymore. And they're dying like flies now.

For the many valid ergonomic and functional reasons listed earlier, your choices should be quite obvious.

XTS5000 model 1 with the channel announce feature for general firefighter use. Model II or model III for
supervisory use.

The XTS5000 seems to have been designed SPECIFICALLY for the fire service. If I were a firefighter, there's
NO other radio that I'd want to have.

Need a competing product? M/A-Com 7100IP SELECT model, or M/A-Com 5100 select model. But this is the
radio you don't want to win. And it won't due to a few reasons. Battery life sucks. The battery voltage detector
circuit and the radio firmware totally mishandle battery indications. Drop the radio and there's a darned good
chance that the battery will pop off. Loud, clear audio not available. Not very clear, certainly not very loud.
No channel announce feature available. Knobs are not as easy to handle with gloves on as with an XTS5000.

Offer the XTS2500 as well.

I wouldn't even bother to offer a Kenwood, Icom, or Vertex product for consideration. Firefighters need
radios that they can trust their lives to and while I do think that Kenwood in particular makes a very good
product among those brands, and NONE of them are bad brands, for public safety use I would not give
them serious consideration. But that's my opinion alone.

Elroy

aaknitt · Post by **aaknitt** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:04 pm

I wish I lived where XTS5000s and the money to buy them grew on trees. Seriously, at 3k a pop, outfitting a department with those suckers would cost more than the yearly budget of many, many departments. (to outfit every firefighter in the U.S. with one would cost well over 3 trillion dollars). So while we can all say they're the greatest radio for firefighting ever invented, it doesn't matter a hill of beans because they're not going to get purchased by small departments. Even with grants, you can't justify the cost/benefit of buying those radios when a $400 V/K/I radio will meet the needs of the department. That grant money could be best used somewhere else.

To get back to the original topic, the normal expected service life of a portable radios is 5 (heavy use) to 8 (little use) years. Departments should budget to replace radios within that timeframe. If it's been more than 8 years with your current radios, it's probably time to change them out.

Andy

Elroy Jetson · Post by **Elroy Jetson** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:35 pm

3K a pop?

Maybe for the III models, but the basic I model is considerably less and is quite adequate for departments that don't need
to assign more than 48 channels or talkgroups for use by firefighters.

And...let's get creative here...is there a law that says the radios have to be NEW? Because I think that you could get outfitted with
clean used XTS3000s for a very reasonable price and you know they're good radios.

Given a choice between any new "other brand" radio for 500 bucks or a clean used XTS3000 for 500 bucks, I'll take the
XTS3000 for 500, Alex. Every time.

Elroy

Post by **Grog** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:42 pm

And if something goes wrong with a "used" radio you issued someone in your department and they get hurt/die. Well crap runs downhill, so the likelihood of a department buying used radios en masse would probably be low.

Post by **escomm** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:46 pm

Elroy Jetson wrote:3K a pop?

Maybe for the III models, but the basic I model is considerably less and is quite adequate for departments that don't need
to assign more than 48 channels or talkgroups for use by firefighters.

And...let's get creative here...is there a law that says the radios have to be NEW? Because I think that you could get outfitted with
clean used XTS3000s for a very reasonable price and you know they're good radios.

Given a choice between any new "other brand" radio for 500 bucks or a clean used XTS3000 for 500 bucks, I'll take the
XTS3000 for 500, Alex. Every time.

Elroy

The 3k was canceled long ago and will be off support in the next year. Once the radio is off support, parts are no longer replenished, the depot RURs the radio, and post-sales supports get real dumb real quick.

All in all, not a well thought-through idea. Especially when these radios are supposed to last for 5-10 years.

I still have not seen any suggestions that would outshine the PR860.

If a department just absolutely HAS to have an Astro25 product, go with an MT1500. they are built from the same platform and have the same construction as an XTS... at 1/3 the price.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:44 am

escomm wrote:I still have not seen any suggestions that would outshine the PR860.

You must not be looking very hard, then... the Kenwood and Vertex suggestions will spank the PR860 any day of the week. PR860 isn't a valid option due to the number of interoperability channels that each and every public safety radio *should* have programmed in to them (for us, that would be 5 federal VCALL/VTACs and 8 state channels). That leaves a whopping 3 channels for the agency's channels - I suspect just about everyone needs more than three channels.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:15 am

V-Tac, U-Tac, or I-Tac. Pick one, whichever band you are in. Every radio should have all the ones applicable to that band in the radio. Some states have given them their own special name. The PR860 should be very low on the list of suggestions. It has a MAX of 16 channels and it is simply not built for our use. It is not as durable and tough as others. Its for business use, not us.

For Motorola, the PR1500 should really be the lowest model public safety emergency service radio you look at. It has the features I outlined previously, 32 channels, and it it is built for the task at hand.

If you need a display but absolutely do NOT need P25 digital operation, the MT1500 is your friend. It is the same as an XTS1500 without the XTS astro features. If you need those Astro/P25 features, the XTS1500 is only $1500. The XTS1500 and MT1500 now comes with this channel knob that sticks way up high. This makes it easy to seperate from the volume knob when reaching for the knobs without looking at the radio or with gloves on. I was pleasantly surprised to see that when I opened a new one last week.

The XTS2500 and XTS5000 can do a lot of fancy things and they are both FF friendly. But for most of us, they do way more than we'll ever need. A small rural fire department would be going way overboard with an XTS5000 in my opinion.

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:48 am

escomm wrote: If a department just absolutely HAS to have an Astro25 product, go with an MT1500. they are built from the same platform and have the same construction as an XTS... at 1/3 the price.

Don't you mean xts1500? Last year I bought them for $700 to create a UHF and VHF cache to sit along side my 800MHz MTS2000 cache.

Post by **escomm** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:55 am

tvsjr wrote:
escomm wrote:I still have not seen any suggestions that would outshine the PR860.
You must not be looking very hard, then... the Kenwood and Vertex suggestions will spank the PR860 any day of the week. PR860 isn't a valid option due to the number of interoperability channels that each and every public safety radio *should* have programmed in to them (for us, that would be 5 federal VCALL/VTACs and 8 state channels). That leaves a whopping 3 channels for the agency's channels - I suspect just about everyone needs more than three channels.

Kenwood and Vertex are not viable solutions.

You can come back to me when you can drop a Kenwood off a 15 foot ladder and not have it even so much as dent the battery. As for my PR860, it's done that three times (plus a 25 foot fall onto some grass) and still works like a champ.

Vertex? Ha Ha, come back and talk when they find a way to keep the knobs from falling off the radio.

The basis of the recommendation is that OP is replacing SP50s.

Why recommend replacing a Yugo with a Ferrari when all they really need is a Honda?

Post by **escomm** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:00 am

KS4VT wrote:
escomm wrote: If a department just absolutely HAS to have an Astro25 product, go with an MT1500. they are built from the same platform and have the same construction as an XTS... at 1/3 the price.
Don't you mean xts1500? Last year I bought them for $700 to create a UHF and VHF cache to sit along side my 800MHz MTS2000 cache.

How many did you buy?

From my limited research, a large government agency can get XTS5000s with IMBE for $2600 a pop....

...if they buy 500 at a time...

Rayjk110 · Post by **Rayjk110** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:05 am

Actually, alot of Vertex's newer portables are quite durable. They've really gotten their

together the last few radios they made. I was impressed with the VX-900 when I had the chance to demo one.

Post by **Grog** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:12 am

I love it when people bring up IMBE for no reason

"Hey, we need to replace some SP50s for fireground use" "You need these XTS6900s as they can be shot out of an elephants arse at 400kph without loosing the Impres label

Post by **escomm** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:15 am

Rayjk110 wrote:Actually, alot of Vertex's newer portables are quite durable. They've really gotten their together the last few radios they made. I was impressed with the VX-900 when I had the chance to demo one.

The NYPD Vertex portables had the knobs falling off 3 weeks after the radios were deployed.

Patrol officers were changing channels with Leathermens.

Demoing a unit is nice... using it in the real world is even better...

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:17 am

Grog wrote:I love it when people bring up IMBE for no reason

"Hey, we need to replace some SP50s for fireground use" "You need these XTS6900s as they can be shot out of an elephants arse at 400kph without loosing the Impres label

Hahahaha!! So that is what MilSpec 810-E is testing!

Seriously though, this is where the MT1500 and PR1500 are great.

Rayjk110 · Post by **Rayjk110** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:18 am

Grog wrote:I love it when people bring up IMBE for no reason

"Hey, we need to replace some SP50s for fireground use" "You need these XTS6900s as they can be shot out of an elephants arse at 400kph without loosing the Impres label

It would be my impression that IMBE would SUCK for fireground use. Isn't there enough backround noise as there is anyways? That's gotta sound horrible on the other end. Matter of fact, I think there were studies done on this, were there not? I can not seem to find them.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:27 am

Correct. Loud obnoxious noises will render the IMBE vocoder useless. It will spit out all kinds of junk. IMBE should NEVER EVER EVER be used for fireground communications.

Post by **escomm** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:31 am

nmfire10 wrote:Correct. Loud obnoxious noises will render the IMBE vocoder useless. It will spit out all kinds of junk. IMBE should NEVER EVER EVER be used for fireground communications.

This has led alot of folks in two-way to think long and hard about why ANY fire agency would use IMBE for ANY reason at all. If ain't good enough for fireground, it ain't good enough for anything else, either.

Other than the flawed "it's the latest and greatest so it MUST be good" thinking that is so typical in this industry...!

Rayjk110 · Post by **Rayjk110** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:38 am

escomm wrote:
Rayjk110 wrote:Actually, alot of Vertex's newer portables are quite durable. They've really gotten their together the last few radios they made. I was impressed with the VX-900 when I had the chance to demo one.
The NYPD Vertex portables had the knobs falling off 3 weeks after the radios were deployed.

Patrol officers were changing channels with Leathermens.

Demoing a unit is nice... using it in the real world is even better...

True, however, wasn't NYPD using a different Vertex portable? I thought they were using one of the smaller radios they make like the VX-410 or similar. The knobs are actually held on with SCREWS on the VX-900. The last I heard, they wanted their Sabers/SSE5000's back.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:43 am

escomm wrote:You can come back to me when you can drop a Kenwood off a 15 foot ladder and not have it even so much as dent the battery. As for my PR860, it's done that three times (plus a 25 foot fall onto some grass) and still works like a champ.

Done it, about 25 feet to concrete. Also lost a TK-2180 in a large warehouse fire under wet rubble for three days. The radio was found as we were rolling up the last of the hose (we checked on scene on Easter Sunday around 10am and didn't clear fully until Wednesday). The radio was pulled apart and rinsed out and is in service to this day, without having to go back to Kenwood for service.

escomm wrote:The basis of the recommendation is that OP is replacing SP50s.

Correct. And they need to improve things, not make a lateral move. The PR860 isn't much better than an SP50.

escomm wrote:Why recommend replacing a Yugo with a Ferrari when all they really need is a Honda?

Yup... I agree here. They don't need XTS5000s (Ferraris). They also don't need PR860s (Yugos).

Post by **Grog** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:46 am

escomm wrote:
nmfire10 wrote:Correct. Loud obnoxious noises will render the IMBE vocoder useless. It will spit out all kinds of junk. IMBE should NEVER EVER EVER be used for fireground communications.
This has led alot of folks in two-way to think long and hard about why ANY fire agency would use IMBE for ANY reason at all. If ain't good enough for fireground, it ain't good enough for anything else, either.

Other than the flawed "it's the latest and greatest so it MUST be good" thinking that is so typical in this industry...!

That's just it, and the sad thing is, many people here think it's what everybody needs when they really have no clue about anything outside their little circle.

The joke I was making was it's obvious the OP did not need digital, as the SP50 sure as heck ain't doing it

As far as IMBE for fireground use, of course it should NOT be used. Then again, I firmly believe that fireground use should be limited to simplex only unless other needs are present (where they HAVE to use a TRS or a large area wildfire). Why not have firefighters on a trunked system switch to simplex frequencies? (besides operator training)......

Ok, I'm done. I haven't eaten smoke for eight years and don't see myself doing it anytime soon, so I'll sit this one out.

ai4ui · Post by **ai4ui** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:05 am

Suprised no one has mentioned Bendix-King now produced by Relm. GPH's are battle tough and can be purchased for less than $800. Need IMBE ? There's a DPH for a few hundred more. Lots of channels (400), easy to operate, a long history of fire use and a proven track record of reliability.

Yes, they are big & bulky, but they are pretty much indestructable. I have a DPH-CMD that I wouldn't trade for just about anything. The command group is a nice feature. How many times have you had a cross zone scan list & had to change zones to reply to a call? With the command group, you can set up a group of up to 20 of your favorite channels, scan them all, and be able to access any of them with the channel knob. Unlike the user selectable tone list of before, this model has a real user select tone, NAC, and talkgroup list. Oh yeah, it's front panel programmable for all radio parameters. No dongle needed, just a small flat blade screw driver or pocket knife. They do sell a dongle, but all it does is short two pins.

If you are on VHF & you don't need any kind of trunking, give Bendix-King a look. Also, they are made in Melbourne, Florida for those who feel it is important to buy American.

Robert

Tom in D.C. · Post by **Tom in D.C.** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:13 am

Just to possibly correct the record about something that was
said above this post, I have owned two Vertex VX-900 portables,
and I still own one of them. The knobs on these two radios,
made circa 2003, were NOT held on by setscrews. They were
friction fit. Maybe they were changed later but mine were not
screwed on the shafts. One time I actually lost a knob and had
to order a new one from the dealer; it just came off without
my knowing it.

Rayjk110 · Post by **Rayjk110** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:36 pm

I might be thinking of a different VX-series portable then.... one of the ones I demoe'd had knobs that appeared to be screwed on (from the top) and I was impressed by that. I could've sworn it was the 900 but I guess not.

Post by **escomm** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:45 pm

tvsjr wrote:They also don't need PR860 (Yugos).

If a PR860 is a Yugo, then the vertex and kenwood models are Radio Flyers

Elroy Jetson · Post by **Elroy Jetson** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:20 pm

I was in the Relm/BK factory about two weeks ago. They're just a few blocks from where I work at and my company is a Relm/BK dealer.

It's a pretty nice setup. And yes, they MAKE the BK radios right there in that factory. The Relm branded radios are made overseas and imported
for final assembly and QC, but the BKs are authentically "MADE IN USA" and their quality is very good. They haven't change much externally since
day 1, but that's a good thing as the services that use them are entrenched with their current BK accessories. You could say it's probably the most
standardized radio in the industry.

800 MHz P25 trunking models will be released for sale "soon". As will a new BK-branded radio that's to be feature for feature equal to the XTS-5000.
I'll be very interested in getting my hands on one for evaluation. Given the situation, I might well be able to get a "first look" at it long before
it's released for distribution.

Elroy

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:25 pm

escomm wrote:
tvsjr wrote:They also don't need PR860 (Yugos).
If a PR860 is a Yugo, then the vertex and kenwood models are Radio Flyers

Spoken like someone who has never personally used either and who has had way too much of the Motorola Koolaid.

Post by **escomm** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:41 am

Terry, there's nothing else for you to contribute here. Your two cents became worthless the moment you said the PR860 was a lateral to an SP50. There is really no better way to demonstrate complete and utter ignorance than spewing drivel like that.

How ironic that in the very same thread you recommended Fisher-Pri..... er, Vertex.

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:06 am

escomm wrote:
KS4VT wrote:
escomm wrote: If a department just absolutely HAS to have an Astro25 product, go with an MT1500. they are built from the same platform and have the same construction as an XTS... at 1/3 the price.
Don't you mean xts1500? Last year I bought them for $700 to create a UHF and VHF cache to sit along side my 800MHz MTS2000 cache.
How many did you buy?

From my limited research, a large government agency can get XTS5000s with IMBE for $2600 a pop....

...if they buy 500 at a time...

25 of each band. Not a very large quantity.

Post by **escomm** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:52 am

KS4VT wrote:25 of each band. Not a very large quantity.

50% off list on an expert tier product... Motorola must really like you... !

I perused Google and saw a contract award for the State of Utah... XTS1500s came out at 16% off list... on a contract expected to have an expected term of 4 years and value of 8 figures

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:48 am

Well it was a special promotion that they were running. Regular price is around $1300.00.
I should also add that this is negotiated pricing, as well as the 800 radios that are on it, and its not a bid contract. Only agencies in my County can buy off of my contract.

Yes we are a special customer!

Vercomm · Post by **Vercomm** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:40 pm

Just a couple things to add:
if you want to find out the age of your radios just take a look at the serial numbers. here's a link to the batlabs website that will help you determine the exact age of your radios.

http://www.batlabs.com/mfgtabl.html

Perhaps you could tell us what kind of features and requirements you have and people could better suggest a make/model for you whether it is Moto, kenwood, Icom, TAIT, Vertex, etc.....

Nobody ever likes to say, but what kind of a budget are you working with (i.e. if you only have $1000/radio then the XTS series would be out of range, on the other hand if you had $2000/radio it would be foolish to recommend a $400 kenwood/vertex/icom/moto entry level radio)

Hope this helps!!

bandaidken · Post by **bandaidken** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:35 pm

Early last year we replaced our old and dangerous P1225's.

I really wanted to start introducing some of the higher end and more durable XTS radios, but as others have said the cost was too much (we had 40 portable radios to replace).

So, we ordered PR860's for the apparatus and I ordered XTS 1500 1.5's for the officers. I would hope that in the future we will continue to add to the XTS's.

The PR860 - Specifically marketed by Moto to firefighters. Good little radio, no display but the guys inside don't need it. Can do MDC1200 which was important to us. Durable and to date have taken the abuse and done well. Also has some beefy knobs which help when you have a gloved hand. The radio is also small and lightweight (we have radio pockets in the turnouts and they fit nicely).

The XTS 1500 1.5 - Man, I love this radio. You hold it and you know it's solid and will work when you need it. There is a definite difference. The officer's have display models so that they can read the mdc decodes.

We also had some HT1250's. Not a bad radio and were kept in service in the officer's seat on the apparatus so that a non-officer senior firefighter could also see the display for the MDC decodes. This radio seems a bit fragile for my liking, but we never had problems.

LASTLY, we standardized the use of MDC1200 for all radios. Personal radios are allowed if they can have the firefighter's personal mdc1200 code progammed into it.

vlcano57 · Post by **vlcano57** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:57 pm

at my department we use Ericsson KPC 300 radios for fireground, GE Orion for mobiles, and Motorola MTS2000 800 mhz for the state ITAC emerency band.

Everyone thinks the Ericssons are crud, and they are correct.
A lot of the guys purchased their own Vertex 180's and like them.

The one day I walked on a scene with the Motorola HT1250 on my strap they all gawked.

After passing it around at the table later that night they all loved it.

Unfortunately my strap broke on a marine call this summer and into the Long Island Sound it went.

I was so pissed. I am working on getting enough money to buy an MTS2000, but now all the guys at the department want to ditch their vertex's for Motorola.
I am trying to convince the town to switch to Moto on the 08 budget.

PD operates them but the FD doesnt.
I try to stress the importance of MDC use, and proper settings for the job.

Radios are one of the most important tools on the fireground, and can not be skimped on
I put in for being the communications advisor for the department, and if I get that title, in come new portables with the new budget.

Your department must understand that these pieces of equipment are as vital as an airpack.
If communications are compromised, then so is your everyone