Switching to 800

[F1118]

The local fire depts are swtiching to 800 mhz...They will still dispatch on the vhf freq but communication between the trucks and dispatch will be on 800. Someone explaining everying at the meeting said that a vhf ht1000 or mt1000 could be modified to transmit and recieve on both bands. I find that hard to belive but would like to hear from everyone on the subject. They can only afford to purchase one repeater for each department so we are in the difficult position of deciding which truck to put the repeater in because we do not have one truck that goes to every single fire. If we can't hit the truck repeater with our portables than we will have no portable communication on the fireground. Im not to fond of this idea, I belive if they are going to make the switch than they should do it the right way and put a repeater in every truck, but since the funding is not avaiable for this we are going to get a half assed system that probably won't work any better than it would work if we put some vhf repeaters up around the county.

[jim]

This sounds like someone started something they have no clue about. They must have heard about 800 and said "hey, let's switch to it. We'll get some radios and repeaters and we'll be on the air!"

This municipality better get in touch with a credible tech or shop who knows about the inner workings and layout of a reliable 800 system. RELIABLE is the key word. There's MORE to it than hanging radios in the trucks and putting up a repeater in every town. Even if it's a conventional system, it may not work for several reasons and you don't want to shell out $$$$$$$$$$ for something that doesn't work as well as your current VHF system (which, by the way, with a little updating will work better than most 800 systems around).

As for adding 800 to a radio- forget it. Ain't gonna happen.

[F1118]

Well its grant money and they think if they can get it why not do it. Another motive here is the future state wide connection between all public saftey agencies on 800...but if they can't come up with enough funding to do it right I say "Dont Do It At All" . . . back to my question, im not expert so I'll ask it, Theres no way possible to convert a vhf ht1000 or mt1000 to even recieve 800? See their saying they could make those radios tx and rx on both bands, and thats what their making most everyone believe. I have the specs at home, I'll post them when I get home and you guys you let me know what you think.

[Alan]

No. The HT1000 can not rx or tx on both VHF and 800 directly.
I think there is a clue in your message where you say that you can't decide on what truck to put the repeater on.
I think what they might be doing is using a wide area 800 system with an 800 to VHF crossband repeater in the truck.
That way they can convert your radio's to operate on both VHF and 800 (by switch to a different switch position on the VHF radio that will activate the truck repeater by selecting a different PL tone).

Does this sound possible?

[F1118]

haha, well i guess anything sounds possible these days. I dont know but I'll find out exactly how their going to do that and let you know. Another thing that im interested in is wether there going to answer you if you call dispatch on the vhf freq after they put the 800 in place and use the vhf for dispatching only. I dont know, I didnt get to attend the first meeting so i just got filled in on it by the chief, Im going to make sure I make it to the next one. If they are talking about cross banding than will the portable have to have anything specific or will any portable that will transmit on the vhf freq work?

[n9upc]

Pryamid makes a great crossband repeater. The units come in VHF UHF and 800 Mhz. All you do is take the prymid unit on VHF and connect to the 800 Mhz radio. (Please note not a plug and play you have to make connectors and set levels)

I would also be very very careful about the state going 800Mhz and what you guys are doing. Over in the twin cities for example the state put up a Digital Motorola APCO25 (well there ideal of apco 25) and when some people heard about that they went out and bought Motorola 800Mhz equipment MTX's and what have you. Those PD's/FD's?ambulance etc..that went out and bought the 800Mhz equipment felt they were already.

Then they found out: 1.) It will be digital, and 2.) It will be that fake apco25 smartzone/smartnet format. So all those conv. and type 1, 2, I/II radios they bought were all no good except for the ITAC freqs. which they have metro wide VHF crosspatches for.

Some sales dept of some shops are really twisting and turning the 800Mhz ideal around for 2 reasons 1.) So they can sell equipment at huge $$$, and 2.) They have little to no amount of knowledge when it comes to these new "APCO25" systems.

Also some people say, " Hey digital 800Mhz is secure, so all of 800Mhz is secure!!!"

Congrats on the grant but I would recommend like other people have here and talk to 1.) Who is engineering the state system, 2.) Who in fact will be in charge of the systems, 3.) Will there be any sub-systems of the state system, and 4.) the cost impact of at least the next 5 years by switching!

Some depts over here though get paged on VHF now and have all comms on Digital 800Mhz trunk. Then they have a 14 channel pryamid in the truck with VHF fire tac channels like state fire, metro fire ground 1 and 2, etc... The pryamids put out 2 watts and on a 1/4 wave truck mount antenna 2 watts does fine for fire scene comms. So when the next town over who is on VHF still comes to help the 800 boys switch over to a conv 800 channel for there radios which gets crossbanded over to VHF.

Ahhh interoperability at it's weakest!!!

[F1118]

can you only run cross band on conventional 800? are you saying you cannot run a vhf cross band on a digital 800 system? I'll have to get the specs on the system and post them when I get home to be sure but I think what were supposed to be getting is a conventional 800 system.

[nmfire10]

Well, the Pyrimid repeaters just interface to the analog audio outputs and audio inputs. It doesn't care what kind of transmision the radio send out the antenna. They even have a model designed to work with a trunking mobile radio.

Will dispatch answer you on VHF? Well, if they leave that capability in the console, they CAN. They question is WILL THEY.

It sounds like this is not exactly the most well planned system. Like you said... IF YOU CAN'T DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, DON'T DO IT AT ALL!!!. Look at these other municipalities that let budget cutting reduce the number of recievers and tower sites. They system SUCK! The equipmemt works just fine, it is just not layed out properly.

[F1118]

Ok Here are the Specs for the New 800 System.
***Mobile Response***
-W5 Spectra Astro
-Smart Zone Software
-Omni Link Software
-Digital ID Display
-Trunk Mount
-Dual Control Head
-VHF Vehicular Repeater System (one per department)
-MTVA Console for Portable Radio
-25W Amp
-MT2000 Portable VHF

***Portable Response***
-XTS5000 800 Mhz Portable
-Astro/Digital Software
-Smart Zone Software
-Omni Link Software
-Digital ID

***Control Station***
-W5 Spectra Plus Desktop Control Station
-Astro/Digital
-Smart Net Software
-Digital ID

@@@Everything in the Mobile Response Package we are supposed to be getting for each trunk except the repeater system. Every department will be getting one repeater system@@@
-Does this look like its going to be a cross band setup since they are adding a VHF MT2000 in the mobile response package?

[Jim202]

This smells like a Motorola designed system with no real outside consultant from the public side. They suck you in for the amount of maoney the quote the first time around. The system coverage is obscured in the fine details of the specifications.

That's when you find out the coverage inside buildings doesn't exist. Then Motorola says "Oh you want inside building coverage, that will cost you $$$ more". Be careful just what the percent of coverage really is.

If you have VHF now, stay with it. Put your money into new VHF radios.

Jim

[nmfire10]

Why on earth are they putting a VHF MTVA in every truck? If you already have a VHF system, I would imagine you already have a VHF mobile & portable in the trucks right now.

[RCVMO]

I am presently using a crossband now between 800, 800 astro, vhf, uhf, uhf 420, and lo-band. Had to build my own interface, but it works well. Since it was built in January, it has been deployed 3 times for portable use in special circumstances requiring the ability to crossband the many agencies in our area, and for DMAT use.
For Example;
an agency on 460 mhz wants to communicate with an agency on vhf, the 460 agency transmits and is heard across the vhf, 800, uhf 420, and lo-bands at the same time.
So lets say you have a massive situation involving all your metro resources that.........you know have all differnt type radio systems, using this rptr will alow everyone to hear and talk to the other depts.
There are some depts. that cannot get gov't grants to buy a new system. They have to scrape what they can off the bottom of the barrel to make ends meet.
In my view, I would rather see more money spent on reliable public safety equipment such as rigs, vehicles, WMD equipment, more training., than having a single communications system costing 3-4 times more than a fire/police//ems rig itself.
Just my .02 cents.
Jimmy

[nmfire10]

Is all this new equipment going to operate on an existing regional trunking system or are you guys putting up your own new one?

[F1118]

NMFIRE: We don't have portables in the trucks, some guys have them and some don't but we do have VHF Mobiles in every truck.

[F1118]

I'll go ahead and list a more specific spec sheet with the quotes on it.
***Mobile Response Package***
-W5 Spectra Astro Mobile - 1870.00
-Astro Digital Software Package - 425.00
-Smart Zone Software Package - 743.00
-Omni Link Software Package - 150.00
-Digital ID Display - 56.00
-3 DB Gain Antenna - 9.00
-Trunk Mount - 223.00
-Dual Control Head - 428.00
-50' Control Head Cable - 78.00
-7.5w Water Resistant Speaker - 30.00
-Y Cable Rear Cont.-Vehicular Repeater System - 228.00
-VHF Vehicular Repeater System - 1820.00
-VHF Antenna - 15.00
-MTVA Console for Portable Radio - 338.00
-25 Watt Power Amplifier - 188.00
-6 Watt Audio Speaker - 79.00
-Truck Mount Cable - 32.00
-VHF Antenna - 15.00
-MT2000 Portable VHF - 821.00
-Mobile Installation - 325.00
-Mobile Programming - 23.00
-Vehicular Repeater System Installation - 110.00
-MTVA Installation - 110.00
-Portable Radio Programming - 23.00
-Rear Control Installation - 500.00
(The Tri-County Area is supposed to be purchasing 38 of these packages with the exception of the Repeater System which will be ONE PER DEPARTMENT)

***Portable Response Package***
-XTS 5000 Portable 800 Mhz - 1619.00
-Astro/Digital Software Package - 386.00
-Smart Zone Software Package - 1125.00
-Omni Link Software Package - 150.00
-Digital ID - 56.00
-RF Adapter - 8.00
-IMPRES Charger - 124.00
-Portable Programming - 23.00
(The Tri-County Area Is supposed to be purchasing 35 of these packages)

***Control Station Package***
-W5 Spectra Plus Desktop Control Station - 1870.00
-Astro/Digital - 425.00
-Smart Net Software Package - 495.00
-Digital ID Display - 56.00
-Control Station Operation - 324.00
-Directional Antenna - 204.00
-100' Of Transmission Line - 601.00
-Installation/Programming - 1250.00
(The Tri County Area are supposed to be purchasing 7 of these packages)

[F1118]

So what we are going to have here is a digital system correct? It looks like it will be compatible with the Hoosier Safe-T Project that will eventually connect every public saftey agency in the state. Can someone explain the Astro/Digital, Smart Zone, Smart Net, and Omni Link Software for me?

[nmfire10]

Whoa, wait a minute. Backup the Apco train. We have bigger issue here....

We don't have portables in the trucks, some guys have them and some don't but we do have VHF Mobiles in every truck.

What is up with that? You don't have portable radios? How do you know if someone is trapped, if they need more or less water, if they need more help, etc? What the hell???

[F1118]

Theres not too many firefighters in our county or the other two surrounding ones that own portable radios...If you have one, you usually own it because most of the volunteer departments give you a base scanner or a motorola keynote for portable response...There are no departments around here that keep portables in their trucks.

[KitN1MCC]

Sounds like some Dep is about to Bent over and done like a 20 dollar whore

[F1118]

Its not the departments, its the funding.

[OX]

Sounds to me like you're joining the Indiana equivalent of Ohio MARCS which is statewide 800 Astro Digital.

I don't know alot about Indiana but Ohio until recently has been restricting who gets on MARCS to OSP, ODNR, ODOT & Corrections. Since alot of state agencies are staying away from it, to defray the costs in the investment, they have been looking into letting local public safety agencies onto the system (big rumor).

Personally, to be a part of a system like that is a lot of money to shell out for normal day to day operations. Emergency ops is another story. But hey, you got a grant so more power to you.

As for the VHF/800 "conversion", ain't no way. You can crossband repeat from VHF to 800 (conv or trunk) and vice versa but doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of things??

Take the grant money, buy some new CDM mobiles and portables and stay on VHF. While you're at it supply your trucks with portables for use on scene or loan them out for fulltime use with each of your volunteers. Digital may sound allright in perfect conditions, but you gotta wonder how distorted it will sound if you are talking to your command post with your SCBA gear on with a lot of background noise--it's hard enough to understand analog audio when going through SCBA....

[nmfire10]

Theres not too many firefighters in our county or the other two surrounding ones that own portable radios...If you have one, you usually own it because most of the volunteer departments give you a base scanner or a motorola keynote for portable response...There are no departments around here that keep portables in their trucks.

No, I mean the TRUCKS (the Fire Dept) doesn't have portable radios. You shouldn't have to use your own portable radio in a burning building. The FD should have them on the trucks. Around here, you don't go in unless at least one person on the team, preferably all members, have a portable radio.

[F1118]

Well I don't think Emergency Management can get this grant unless its a step towards the Indiana SAFE-T Project....Our users consist of Fire, EMS, and law enforcement. Not sure if other state government will be using it or not. Also County and State Hwy Dept are supposed to have access to the system.

[Cowthief]

Hello.

Good thing Ohio is going 800, Texas has killed the 800Mhz trunked system in Austin, that is correct, the state has pulled the plug, smartest move Rick Perry ever did.

Thank You.

[Radio_Cowboy]

Anthony,

What part of In are you in? I'm a former Hamilton County Resident.. Food for thought, you might want to look at the problems that White River township fire and Greenwood PD was having with the new Safe-T system..... It took some head butting, and argueing who's fault it was, and also took Greenwood PD switching back to their old VHF system and raising holey hell about it to get a new Site installed up in the Greenwood area.

I would suggest holding off on new stuff for the time being....upgrade your VHF system, get portables for the firefighters, and wait a year or two and see how the new Safe-T system is going to work. Make sure it will cover your area of the state. I'm going to be VERY curious as to what the coverage of the new Safe-T system will be south of I-70! Especially in Brown and Monroe county area, where it's very Hilly. And if your department head's still insist on going to the 800 system, Insist they keep the VHF mobiles in the trucks as a backup system! (you could also still use the VHF system as TAC radios too)


my .02



-RC-

[Wes]

I CANT UNDERSTSAND SOMETHING ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING. WHY IS A DEPARTMENT/COUNTY THAT CANT AFFORD PORTABLE VHF RADIOS AND HAVE TO USE KEYNOTES AND SCANNERS TO ALERT THEIR PEOPLE, BUYING AN 800 MHz DIGITAL SYSTEM?

SOMEONE NEEDS TO BACK UP AND PUNT HERE. I WOULD MUCH RATHER HAVE A GOOD VHF SIMULCAST REPEATER SYSTEM THAN 800 MHz ANY DAY......

JUST MY $0.02

WES