Batboard

hahahah hey im with her!

my AS3 isnt one of nicks... so moto can... well you know.

HumHead wrote:The amateur use arguments are all well and good, as long as you load the radio with your own open source firmware, P25 codec, and service it using your own service software.

So you're telling me that if you buy a controller board, you're not entitled to the firmware loaded inside?

That's a mighty big can of worms you'd be opening up there.

When you buy the hardware, that entitles you to the firmware that allows it to operate, unless you can show me a purchase agreement or EULA stating otherwise.

As far as service software: If you service it with legitimate software that you purchased from Motorola, then that argument holds no water in the least.... or if you take it to an authorized Moto dealer, and pay them to service/align/program it.

Either way, your ass is covered just fine.

The bottom line is: when the parts were bought, the license to operate the firmware inside the part was purchased as well.

my local MSS will load program ham frequencies in any of my motorolas, or any other properly licensed amateur operator.

How is that illegal??

HumHead wrote: Here's a point for thought for those who are trying to figure out the issue: This enforcement effort is being spear headed by the Intellectual Property Enforcement division. It is not being run by Loss Prevention / Asset Management / Inventory Control, or whatever /\/\ calls the divison that deals with physical property.

That should say something about where their thinking is coming from.

Exactly.

However, If it's strictly intellectual property, how does the "parts built" and "counterfeit" issues apply? There are three major components to the radios. Vocoder, RF and Control boards. All three were built by Motorola and either bought directly from Motorola or through used channels. (I.e., eBay etc.) Both the Control and Vocoder boards are supplied with the basic code already installed.

Is it the lack of a paper trail assigning a license (right to use) for the firmware that makes it an issue?

Jeff

stay-con wrote:Is it the lack of a paper trail assigning a license (right to use) for the firmware that makes it an issue?

Jeff

if thats the case, than ANY used radio would be illegal if the original owner didnt transfer the license.

i would imagine that the code was licensed from DVSI TO motorola for use when creating the hardware in the first place.

this could easily be settled though, has anyone here ever purchased a vocon (just as a part or had one replaced) and had to agree to a license?

if no, then the IP arguement pertaining to firmware / vocoder code is irrelevant.

I would venture to say that Motorola already has what they want: a significant portion of the populace will, in the future, look at a parts built radio that is inexpensive, and think to themselves. "I remember what a hassle there was for everyone who bough the Nick radios......I will just spend the extra cash, and buy a "legitimate" one." Having said that............

*looks at the well beaten horse carcass on the ground and thinks, "There is almost nothing left to beat, on this dead horse." *

"...*looks at the well beaten horse carcass on the ground and thinks, "There is almost nothing left to beat, on this dead horse." *"
______________________________________________________________

Agree 100%

Many of the recent posts are repetitive and indicate that the poster did not bother to take the time to review the thread where almost every possible point of vew has been expressed and debated.

We would like to keep the thread open for new developments - let's PLEASE do just that - let's wait to hear from folks who have talked to an attorney, from folks who have written to Motorola with questions - and what answers they received, etc.

OK?

At the risk of being repetitive, I also have consulted with an attorney and he said the same thing as the one already posted. The best course of action is non-response.

I also would like to keep the thread open to see what, if ANYTHING, happens after the March 1st "deadline".....

Hello.

What makes a radio 100% legal?
FCC approval of the RX and TX, correct.
What about the label issues?
What if,,,Tha batlabbers got together and came up with a logo?
Now, send in the the FCC, what models you want type approval on.
Kind of an odd work-around, but it would get people at /\/\ to thinking.

I am really amazed at some of the members on this board that would actually fall for some of this BS when it comes to an alleged threat by Motorola demanding the return of a radio stolen or built with spare parts. Since this seems to be an occasional ongoing problem, I have no choice but demand eveyone on this board send me all thier radios ASAP until I can determine who has legal right to ownership.

Please email me at met121@msn.com and I advise you as to where to send your radios.

"...I have no choice but demand eveyone on this board send me all thier radios ASAP..."
____________________________________________________________

You are too late. I think they have all been sent to spectragod per his similar offer which preceeded yours.

Sorry.

I can do better. I will pay shipping for you to send your radios to me.

I also have precisely the same legal rights Motorola has to demand that you do so!

The problems are only begining for Motorola. With the internet becoming a international trading place more and more parts built radios will be coming from places like Taiwan, China and other Asian nations where motorola will have no say in what goes on like they do here. I have been in previous contact with people who sell part built radios and recycled batteries from asia, who say their business is huge now that many companies sell parts to them for a minimal price. They have a huge profit turnaround.

Another thought I had along the same lines:

I'm sure we've all seen that there are a LOT of Astro Sabers being surplused out by the federal government as well as some XTS's. Most of the radios are Model 1's but I've also seen quite a few AS2's and XTS 2's...

They can be found on ebay almost every day.

As this happens more and more, Motorola is going to find it harder and harder to stamp their feet in anger and cry that their IP rights are being violated because people will be trading and selling LEGIT Motorola radios but with the "IP" (flashcode/host/dsp) intact, purchased LEGITIMATELY through GSA surplus channels?

I wonder how they propose to attack that?

Cowthief wrote:Hello.

What about the label issues?
What if,,,Tha batlabbers got together and came up with a logo?

Something I came up with.


And for the XTS 5000R

And now there's THIS:

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=43394

Is there an 800 phone number on these letters? If so, can someone please post it so I can call them. I want to ask them if they will replace the radio with an XTS of equal firmware

If they are THAT concerned about these radios, then they would offer something to get them back - even if it is at their expense.

It's 800 422 4210. Their general parts ordering line...

I to have recieved the M letter, here is what it boils down too.
When a radio is "built" it must recieve FCC guideline approval before it is sold in the market. Nicks radios were not FCC type accepted due to the fact they did not go thru the FCC guidelines of tuning,etc.. Therefore it makes the radios operation ilegal because it is not type accepted. Florida has a law stating that if you have communication equipement that is NOT FCC licensed or type accepted it is a 3rd degree felony which is up to 3 years in state prison .Other states have somewhat the same laws. In short,I never received my radios from Nick therefore I advised them as such & gave them a notorized statement that he basicly commited mail fraud.End of story. Pam Curtis from Motorola was very nice,polite & did not question my answers when I stated I had no radios from Nick. Also note,Nick stated to me he was a Retired LAPD commander,which is NOT the case.Spoke with LAPD & they have NEVER had a male by that name in thier department.

Dont call the 800 number,you will just get a bunch of camal jocks not knowing where to transfer you to. You need to speak to Pam Curtis,she is the person handling the letter responses. Her direct line is 847-725-6144

deny everything,Admit nothing,demand proof!

123 wrote:I to have recieved the M letter, here is what it boils down too.
When a radio is "built" it must recieve FCC guideline approval before it is sold in the market. Nicks radios were not FCC type accepted due to the fact they did not go thru the FCC guidelines of tuning,etc.. Therefore it makes the radios operation ilegal because it is not type accepted. Florida has a law stating that if you have communication equipement that is NOT FCC licensed or type accepted it is a 3rd degree felony which is up to 3 years in state prison .Other states have somewhat the same laws. In short,I never received my radios from Nick therefore I advised them as such & gave them a notorized statement that he basicly commited mail fraud.End of story. Pam Curtis from Motorola was very nice,polite & did not question my answers when I stated I had no radios from Nick. Also note,Nick stated to me he was a Retired LAPD commander,which is NOT the case.Spoke with LAPD & they have NEVER had a male by that name in thier department.

more repeating, but as previously stated, using the radio as a scanner or on amateur radio frequencies does NOT require any type acceptance and therefore is perfectly legal.

123 wrote: When a radio is "built" it must recieve FCC guideline approval before it is sold in the market. Nicks radios were not FCC type accepted due to the fact they did not go thru the FCC guidelines of tuning,etc.. Therefore it makes the radios operation ilegal because it is not type accepted.

Nick didn't build radios. (As in a new design.) He assembled radios of an existing already type accepted design.

If you repair a radio, it doesn't have to go through type acceptance again.
If that were the case, nobody would be repairing radios.

Jeff

Not true,Nick also made XTS radios from new parts,the parts have not type accepted until the radio is finished. it must have a FCC ID on the finished product. "repairing" a current type accepted & "building" a new radio not yet type accepted are two different animals.
Also just because you are not transmitting does not mean your non-type accepted radio is legal.If that were the case,scanners would not have to get FCC certifed before being sold. Read your FCC & USC codes before speaking guys. The radios are illegal, because by US law, the FCC never gave thier stamp of approval. Anyone who has an engineering degree or knows about US FCC titles will agree.Anything eletronic must be certifed by the FCC & have the FCC ID tag on it wheather it transmits or not. If the FCC ID is not displayed,that is also a crime under USC code

scanners are only required to have part 15 certifications..

ham radios dont need ANY type acceptance... i could build a radio out of used cat food cans and some duct tape and talk on my local 2m repeater.
(my Uniden HR2600 that i bought at AES ONLY covers 28 - 29.7, cannot be EASILY modded for CB, yet has not a word about FCC on its label, is that also illegal for me to use/posses? not a chance)

when a radio is type accepted, they send a few samples for tests.. then that SERIES of radios is approved.. they dont send in every single radio to individually be accepted.

so lets think about that for a second... (assuming all parts are from motorola, and not made by 'joes XTS part company')

if you replace an RF board, did you just void it?
of course not..
if you replace a vocon? nope
Replace a housing?
if you replace the housing? dont be silly grem.

the radios were assembled with parts that were included in the original type acceptance. Now if he had said "you know, this PA sucks, i can replace this transistor with that one and make it more efficient..." then yeah he voided it.

As long as the radios are assembled with the EXACT same parts as the factory radio, and aligned properly (whole nother can of worms), then the type acceptance doesnt fly either.

now again, im talking about use on commerical and PS frequencies.

for ham use, i can take the radio apart, and shove in some Kraco and Alinco parts and still legally use it on my local 440 ham machine.

also, if these radios were so horrible, then explain the ones that were depot'd and returned? are those now in violation? and if so then motorola is guilty as well.

[/more beating of dead horse]

Not every single radio is sent in for type accecptance The design is type accecpted after an independant testing agency verifies the design meets the specs as supplied to the FCC on the documents submitted during the type accecptance process.

Once I recieve type accecptance for a radio design and an FCC number is issued I can print as many of the labels I want and stick them on as many radios as I can make and sell. I do not have to send each radio in for approval before I can sell it. The design is approved not each individual unit of the design.

The "design" by the person or company who designed it,not a 3rd party.Overwise copycats would have a field day buying parts from all the major radio companies & resaling as new type accepted radios.cant do that

[quote="grem467"]and aligned properly (whole nother can of worms), then the type acceptance doesnt fly either.



exactly,you said it yourself. aligned properly,you can not have joe blow align the radio & be type accepted,which goes back to my previous point.....................!

i also said:

now again, im talking about use on commerical and PS frequencies.

for ham use, i can take the radio apart, and shove in some Kraco and Alinco parts and still legally use it on my local 440 ham machine.

okay,you have a point on ham,but the subject was Nick building XTS radios,which he broke the law because the radios were not aligned on the proper specs of the FCC cert. of type acceptance.

nooo, if the radio was said to only be able to transmit in the ham bands ONLY will the type acceptance not be needed. if you have a transciever able to transmit of out the ham bands EVEN if you never chose to transmit in those frequencies,you will still need the FCC acceptance. lol you people are just making up your own laws as you go along huh?>

123 wrote: the radios were not aligned on the proper specs of the FCC cert. of type acceptance.

So how hard would it be for Motorola to just align the radio to proper FCC specs? Not hard at all. But they would rather be the big A$$ holes that they are and threaten everyone who bought one and treat them like criminals. I think that they should of offered everyone who purchased a Nick radio to Depot it and repair whatever might be wrong with it.

Just my .02’s

Hello.

The FCC will tell you flat out, the radios I had, the ones that Motorola got upset over, were in the military aero band.
The second odd thing, the IP was 100% legal.
So, why did circle M pick me as one of the first targets?
Think about it.
Harris countys radio system was to be the showcase to the American people, super bowl and all.
The system is a joke, and everybody knows it.
The only reason it works at all has to do with some little agreement a while back.
PS users can make arangements to use private SMRs as an overflow.
This works out well in theory, police are usually busy at night, when the business side of the SMR is at a low.
Great idea, yes?
The only problem is, the bulk of the traffic, both day and night, is run off the private SMR.
The local MSS, and thus Motorola, lost complete control of this SMR.
Contracts were held to be invalid, the whole bit.
Now, if the old privacy plus system is taken off the air, both Harris county and Motorola are, shall we say, screwed.
Crime is easy to figure out, just look for the motive.

Military aero band???

Are you talking about the famed spectra?

Or, was it an LST5-C Uhf satcom transceiver that's made by Motorola?


mancow

xmo wrote:"...I have no choice but demand eveyone on this board send me all thier radios ASAP..."
____________________________________________________________

You are too late. I think they have all been sent to spectragod per his similar offer which preceeded yours.

Sorry.

or me, since i beat spectragod to the punch back on page one of this rambling post. I have six so far!

I told everyone what I did with my letter,I would like ot know what everyone else who has a letter is doing for action. Can you guys give details? Just curious

mancow wrote:Military aero band???

Are you talking about the famed spectra?

Or, was it an LST5-C Uhf satcom transceiver that's made by Motorola?


mancow

The famed, invisible Spectra.

Hello.

No, there were 2 talkies that were bought as doner parts radios to rebuild 2 military talkies.
The famed spectra project had nothing to do with this, yet everything to do with this.
There was NO IP issue with any spectra radio, as non of the parts came from Nick.
Not that Motorola did not try to make an issue if this, on the grounds of reverse engineering.
But, what was odd, in the case of the spectra, it was just like Motorola, send this radio to someone who you do not know, for whatever reason.
The military aero band, if you do not know, is 225MHz to 400MHz.

OH MAN.......
now i have a headache......all these big fancy words flyin everywhere

Apologies in advance for the off-topicness, but I couldn't let this fly.

Cowthief wrote:Harris countys radio system was to be the showcase to the American people, super bowl and all.
The system is a joke, and everybody knows it.
The only reason it works at all has to do with some little agreement a while back.
PS users can make arangements to use private SMRs as an overflow.
This works out well in theory, police are usually busy at night, when the business side of the SMR is at a low.
Great idea, yes?
The only problem is, the bulk of the traffic, both day and night, is run off the private SMR.
The local MSS, and thus Motorola, lost complete control of this SMR.
Contracts were held to be invalid, the whole bit.
Now, if the old privacy plus system is taken off the air, both Harris county and Motorola are, shall we say, screwed.
Crime is easy to figure out, just look for the motive.

There are no 800 MHz SMR systems left in the Houston area. None. Every frequency used in the STAR-NET system is licensed to one of three entities: Harris County, Missouri City, and Pasadena. End of story.

*resumes lurking*

123 wrote: Florida has a law stating that if you have communication equipement that is NOT FCC licensed or type accepted it is a 3rd degree felony which is up to 3 years in state prison .

The statute you are citing deals with the issue of FM and AM and other broadcast stations operating with out a license and without certified equipment. This was in response to numerous pirate stations interfering or transmitting on frequencies of large commercial broadcast stations. These thing where and still are popping up on a weekly basis, and the FCC just did not have the time or people to deal with them. There are other statutes that specifically deal with transmitting on public safety and government frequencies.

(my Uniden HR2600 that i bought at AES ONLY covers 28 - 29.7, cannot be EASILY modded for CB, yet has not a word about FCC on its label, is that also illegal for me to use/posses? not a chance)

But Grem.....

Is your HR2510 E-Bay compliant??

123 wrote:nooo, if the radio was said to only be able to transmit in the ham bands ONLY will the type acceptance not be needed. if you have a transciever able to transmit of out the ham bands EVEN if you never chose to transmit in those frequencies,you will still need the FCC acceptance. lol you people are just making up your own laws as you go along huh?>

hmm really?

is that why my yaesus dont have Part 95 certification? all it takes to make it TX out of band is a simple removal of a diode and yet its still illegal to transmit out of band.. why? its not TYPE ACCEPTED to be there.. so much for your 'law'

MSS-Dave wrote:

(my Uniden HR2600 that i bought at AES ONLY covers 28 - 29.7, cannot be EASILY modded for CB, yet has not a word about FCC on its label, is that also illegal for me to use/posses? not a chance)

But Grem.....

Is your HR2510 E-Bay compliant??

hahahaha

i got my 2510 after that, i still cant understand why the 2600 got canned as a "CB" radio.. yeah if i replaced the microprocessor with a chipswitch one maybe.. sheesh

motorola_otaku wrote:Apologies in advance for the off-topicness, but I couldn't let this fly.

Cowthief wrote:Harris countys radio system was to be the showcase to the American people, super bowl and all.
The system is a joke, and everybody knows it.
The only reason it works at all has to do with some little agreement a while back.
PS users can make arangements to use private SMRs as an overflow.
This works out well in theory, police are usually busy at night, when the business side of the SMR is at a low.
Great idea, yes?
The only problem is, the bulk of the traffic, both day and night, is run off the private SMR.
The local MSS, and thus Motorola, lost complete control of this SMR.
Contracts were held to be invalid, the whole bit.
Now, if the old privacy plus system is taken off the air, both Harris county and Motorola are, shall we say, screwed.
Crime is easy to figure out, just look for the motive.

There are no 800 MHz SMR systems left in the Houston area. None. Every frequency used in the STAR-NET system is licensed to one of three entities: Harris County, Missouri City, and Pasadena. End of story.

*resumes lurking*

Wait... SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Can you hear the crickets chirping while he thinks of an rebuttal?

HA ! thats too funny

Hello.

To that I say BS.
NextHell is the biggest SMR on the planet!
There are a bunch of SMRs in Houston, and they are not listed as STAR-NET.
That is the whole point, the STAR-NET system SUCKS!
Harris county tried to sell it to the US Secret Service.
You can read the local Houston paper, it failed almost every test put to it.
The feds did pony up some money to help HFD go to UHF.
And, look at the codeplug for a Harris county radio, you will see the things work several systems, all of what is called this STAR-NET.
Quick question? Where is the downtown transmitter site, the one most used?
Who does this belong to?

Alright, to get back on-topic, here's an interesting find that may pertain to what is happening to those of you with these Nick radios.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050221-4636.html

a little outdated but still applies here.

http://www.motorola.com/General/Press/P ... 22214.html