Batboard

Having followed the various posts regarding the "frequency" issue. Let me add my fuel to the fire. First obtaining a license in the commercial segments would be almost impossible without someone commiting purgery on the license application. You have to state under what condition you are applying for, what would you put down? Personally I wouldn't want to expose myself to a possible fraud investigation by the FCC. Every participant would be putting all their FCC licenses in jeporady. Personally, I would not have my Amateur Extra Class, my Commercial (first class) RTOL and others at risk. Those of us that have been professional communicatiors and have made or livelyhood by following the rules don't want to violate the rules. All that would be necessary to implement a true nationwide network would be to define several frequencies in the amateur radio bands. Many members of this forum hold amateur licenses and would be more than willing to help those that would want to obtain their license. For anyone all that it takes is a minimum of study and pass a written test, to obtain your no-code technician license. Come on guys don't set on the sideline and be awannbe with all those public safety frequencies programmed in your radio, just so you can key up the local police or fire dept repeater.
The excuse that "my Motorola radio won't tune into the ham bands," is pretty lame. Quite a few models will, so why not add another radio to your collection that will tune into the ham bands? With current technology VoiP is real so interconnection would be a snap. And for Dayton or other festitives, the only logical solution would be MURS or GMRS. If you don't have a license, pay your money and get your GMRS licnese, you can apply on line and have your license within a week.

OK I've now added my fuel so everone can turn their flames back on.
RadioConsult

I'd second that.

Although an official batalabs frequency would be neat, it is really unnecessary. I'm guessing that most of us have GMRS licenses (if you don't, it is a small investment), and we could establish a nationwide "batlabs" PL or DPL for simplex or repeater access, along with a "calling channel" for instances where prior coordination between "batlabs crew" hasn't taken place. You could just monitor the calling channel on the batlabs tone at ANY event -- who knows, you might meet some fellow batlabers in area where you would have never thought! You could then move you conversation to another frequency if necessary, just like the marine channels or national simplex calling channels on the ham bands. The 8 standard channels, and 7 interstitial channels normally provides a open channel at almost any event, and putting up a temporary repeater for some of the larger events like Dayton doesn't involve extensive licensing/coordination. Even in radio dense environments where there is a lot of radio traffic on these channels, my guess is that most of the batlabs users would be proficient enough to monitor the channel before transmitting.

This arrangement would put the licensing responsibility on each individual, which is where it should be.

My .02

-Yosh
KD6PXE
WPOL560

Yep, I have to agree. The GMRS idea seems a little better, as I know there are folks on this board who simply do not want ham licenses. Not that I, a ham for 28 years can figure out why, but that's the fact.

Since the majority seemed in favour of going to UHF anyway, GMRS is currently the most practical idea.

My $.02

What?

There seemed to be quite a bit of support for the BatLabs itenerant radio frequencies at Dayton.

I was a bit dismayed to find out what this post was about.

radioconsult wrote:First obtaining a license in the commercial segments would be almost impossible without someone commiting purgery on the license application. You have to state under what condition you are applying for, what would you put down?

How does "Private Internal Communications" sound?

If someone could find a section of Part 90 that makes this illegal, I'd love to read it.

If BatLabs was an IRS 501 non-profit organization, this would be completely legal. I'm not saying we are now, but this is something to look at.


"But what about people using their own radios, that aren't owned by the licensee? Isn't that illegal?" Some might ask. Let's check out what the rules say:

Sec. 90.421 Operation of mobile units in vehicles not under the control of the licensee.

Mobile station transmitters may be installed in vehicles operated by
persons other than the licensee as provided in the following paragraphs
when necessary for the licensee to meet his requirements in connection
with the activities for which he is licensed. The number of units so
installed, together with units installed in vehicles operated by the
licensee, must not exceed the number of mobile units authorized to the
licensee. When an insufficient number of units is licensed to cover such
additional units, the license must be modified to add a sufficient
number of mobile units. The licensee is responsible for taking any
necessary precaution to effectively eliminate the possibility of
unauthorized operation of transmitters when not under the control of the
licensee.

...

(b) Industrial/Business Pool. Mobile units licensed in the
Industrial/Business Pool may be installed in the following:

(1) Vehicles of persons furnishing under contract to the licensee
and for the duration of the contract, a facility or service directly
related to the activities of the licensee;

....

Again, what part of the rules are we breaking?


Please note that I really think that plans for a "nationwide" radio network are a bit far off reality, at least for the time being.

All that I am talking about are getting licensed for some itenerant frequencies in the Business bands for members of BatLabs group (and only BatLabs group members) to communicate with each other at ham swaps.

I don't think we are trying to start a new NexTel.

I would have to agree with KC8RYW I dont see what rules are being broken.

The issue is Elgibility. Under what section would you apply for a license? What you are proposing is a hobby type of radio communication. When you file for a license you have to state UNDER OATH what the content of your communications will be and how this will benefit your entity. This is why there are different radio services. Some licensees qualify for specific services, i.e., Specia lIndustrial, Local Government, Police, Fire and finally Business Radio Service. Anyone that has ever prepared a form 610 can verify that its no easy task, but if you want to commit purgery then you can put down what ever you desire. Now if you wanted to pay a high powered FCC attorney to prepare such a license request, I'll be more than happy to rcommend a couple, including the firm that my employer retains just for the purpose of maintaining the thousands of individual licenses that we have

After looking at my gmrs license i see it gives me the use of the freq for a given latitude/longitude with a 45 mile radius of the coordinates on the license.

My qeustion would be =Is everybody with a gmrs license going to be legal using thier radio outside these coordinates given on the granted gmrs license when they are at dayton/ assuming your outside your granted miles of radius of operation according to the license held by the individual ?

Murs maybe the best all around way to go.

I know there will be individuals that want to particpate but dont have a vhf radio(me included)but from a logical / legal stand point MURS probab ly best fits the application by letting hams and non hams get in contact by using this band and keeping it legal.

EKLB

RadioConsult said in longer form what I implied in my post on page 2 of the original thread.

Since GMRS (if it's legal in this application) and amateur frequencies are already in place and available, I don't think it's worth all the effort to try to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.

And on the IRS Section 501 thing [it would be 501(c)3] I don't see what being or not being a charitable organization has to do with it.
The real question is whether or not the proposed operation would be a bonafide business application or, IMHO more likely, a "hobby" type operation, as was pointed out above.

My $0.02 worth also.

Tom, W2NJS
...in D.C.

EKLB wrote:After looking at my gmrs license i see it gives me the use of the freq for a given latitude/longitude with a 45 mile radius of the coordinates on the license.

My qeustion would be =Is everybody with a gmrs license going to be legal using thier radio outside these coordinates given on the granted gmrs license when they are at dayton/ assuming your outside your granted miles of radius of operation according to the license held by the individual ?

Murs maybe the best all around way to go.

I know there will be individuals that want to particpate but dont have a vhf radio(me included)but from a logical / legal stand point MURS probab ly best fits the application by letting hams and non hams get in contact by using this band and keeping it legal.

EKLB

Your GMRS license must be a pre-1999 one.

GMRS licenses these days gives everyone access to the 8 primary frequencies, the 7 FRS "shared" interstitial channels, and the 8 '467' repeater input frequencies which correspond to the 8 primary output frequencies.

I've had mine for a little over a year, myself, and to tell you the truth, the frequencies in most metro areas are pretty jammed up as it is. Plus, most repeaters are not open access repeaters and there are still a number of businesses on grandfathered licenses on a lot of the frequencies as well.

There are also restrictions on usable frequencies using GMRS. North of Line A, 462/467.650 and 462/467.700 cannot be used at all due to Canada being nearby.

Piracy is also a problem on GMRS. Too many idiots are selling radios on GMRS frequencies on eBay and stores as well have been selling "bubble pack" GMRS radios at low costs to an unsuspecting public. 99% of the time, they aren't an issue. When they discover that the so-claimed "5 mile range" equates to about 5 city/suburb blocks they send 'em back or throw them in a drawer never to be seen again.

I am working on getting a GMRS repeater on the air, for local (hopefully city-wide) coverage (5.41 square miles) with a 2 watt portable, however, I am having duplexer problems and antenna height restrcitions (as in I can't find a way to get it up higher than 25' due to power lines and lack of space in the back yard. I hope to get my EF Johnson PPL6000 home-made repeater up on the air and then upgraded to a GR300. It should be on the '575' split as here it is the only clear legal channel pair here.

It wouldn't bother me at all if we all went GMRS, though. It works out almost as well as the itinerant frequency license- everyone in your family can work under your license, so that's a plus. The $75 is the only inhibitor many people have in buying a license, though.

-Josh
WPTP753

To clear up a couple of points:

What would be improper is that the business frequencies are limited to those who are in a business, and to communications for that business. The proposed communications are not commercial in nature, therefore one could not certify (under the penalties of perjury) that the use would be eligible.

Under the new rules, the holder of a GMRS license may use portables and mobiles anywhere within the jurisdiction of the FCC, subject to certain exclusions (near the Canadian border and proximate to the National Observatory in D.C.).

BATLABS couldn't qualify as a 501(c)(3), as this refers to public charities. In theory one could organize a private, not-for-profit club (essentially a cooperative), which would be a 501(c)(4), but that would take a good deal more paperwork (and less anonymity) than is presently in place.

Inbound interference from crowded Part 95 channels may be a problem if one is going for long range, but the capture effect should insure operability on a portable-to-portable basis at a specific event. As far as outbound interception, I never say anything over the radio that I don't ASSUME strangers are listening to.

There are those who believe that the rules in place don't make sense, and they may be right, and there are those in place who choose to ignore the rules, and it is certainly true that enforcement is virtually nil. However, I'm like radioconsult and yosh: I have too many licenses to put any in jeopardy.

Guys just keep it simple.

Pick VHF, UHF ham simplex and go with the standard GMRS pairs and splinters. Licensing is already there for us, fits the needs and scope of what we do, doesn't committ purgery and its already there.

Go with standard PL or DPL and we should be all set.

While I'm thinking of it there are 2 15 channel MSF5000 based Type trunked systems on ebay right now. Going for 41k! Lets pick that up and just cart it around to various parts of the country.

Hello!!

You people are making it WAAAY too complicated.

Three Words - Family Radio Service.

Why not have a "batlabs" channel. Let's say, channel 10 with a PL of 151.4 or something like that.

Really easy, really legal, and really cheap. everyone should own a pair of FRS radios.


Mike

Having seen the word murdered here in posts at least twice, I wish to advise those offenders that the word is PERJURY, not purgery.

I think that some people must not read anything, at all, ever. Enough is enough.

Tom, W2NJS
...in D.C.

Tom,

Maybe they meant what they wrote - "purgery" as in "the act of purging".

I dunno; kinda like a "mute" point - when it should be "moot".

Jack

Let me give a few examples of Part 90 operations, and ask if they are making illegal use of the Business Radio Band:

A credit union is sending some of it's employees (who are member-owners, too) to a national credit union convention. The credit union is licensed for two iternerant VHF channels nationwide. At the convention, the employees use the radios to find out where each other are, and tell each other about the boothes worth visiting.

Would this be illegal?

A local retail store is licensed for a frequency in the Business Radio Band. However, most of the employee's use the radios as more of a chatter-line, then for true business usage. Topics discussed in the normal day include spousal relationships, how the kids are doing, and the parties over the weekend.

Would this be illegal?

A few members of a church are driving to a missionary in another part of the country. They are licensed on a UHF interant business frequency (nationwide.) To coordinate rest stops, they use these radios in their cars. They also use radio for directions, if one of the cars gets sperated from the group.

Would this be illegal?

Well, I'm not sure about the US, but, here in Canada, this happened once:

There was some kind of parade or something in town. One of the local Industries (John Deere) let the parade organizers use a few of their radios.

Well, Industry Canada (the same as the FCC, in Canada) got wind of this, and slapped John Deere with a hefty fine.

Personally, i thought that was dumb - they weren't breaking any other rule except the one..it's not like they were using them for illegal purposes or something.


Mike

K.I.S.S. (keep it simple & stupid) method guys ! !!!!!

Each that wants to use gets a itinerant license, GMRS, FRS etc
no responsibility problems. Anonimity is preserved, As for the hams
we have freqs. PICK ONE and get it over with! 99% of ham rigs are full band vfo etc. NO PROBLEMS THERE ! The reality of it is that most of us chat here about what hamfest we are going to and the freqs we can meet on beforehand anyway. The "batfreq" would really be just a listening
place (in SETI terms, the waterhole) , if no other pre arangements were made. Suggestion, vhf murs freqs with priority to lowest thru highest.
with common pl like 100.0 if one is busy step to the next up etc.
That way sooner or later fellow "bats" will collide on the air at an event.
Get there, listen, put a call or 2 out on "murs1" no answer do it on 2 etc.
Kinda like when searching for someone in a public place, it is better sometimes to stop and let them find you ! I would venture that 90% or more of us serious "bats" that also might do that much traveling to these events have a vhf radio. Ok Ill get off my lilly pad, Phrawg

Jonathan,

IMHO it would be:

No
Yes
No

But then again, that's why lawyers (and particularly those that practice communications law) get such hefty fees.

It's just like my grandaddy always said: "One lawyer in a small town will starve; two lawyers in a small town will make a good living."

Q: Do you know how many lawyer jokes there are?
A: 3 - all the rest are true.



Jack

I hate to be the party pooper but hasn't this subject been beaten to death? Pick a frequency in each band.....plus a couple of ham frequencies add a common PL and you are set.


IE.....

VHF MURS - 151.880 PL 94.8
UHF GMRS - 462.550 PL 94.8

2M HAM - 146.575 PL 94.8
70cm HAM - 446.825 PL 94.8

All compliments of last years Dayton radio Frequency Posts....only difference is the PL really....94.8 is easy for me to remember....

Yes Pergury... see what happens when you're tired writing posts?

Anyway, Whomever goes on suggesting FRS should be shot on site.

We're highly technical and educated folks, why in the hell would be want to use the garbage band of radio! UHG!


I can't stand FRS, the crap that is communicated over it and the annoying noises all the radios make! The modat on crack sound the motorola FRS units makes is just childish.

We've all got ham licenses or GMRS or MURS lets use them, drop the IB licensing nonsense pick PL tones and be done with it!


I'd suggest DPL if possible. Oh and if anyone wants to use IMBE just do so on the same channel. Who cares if we run mixed mode?

The freqs Jamz listed look fine to me.

To clear things up as to my gmrs being pre 1999=yes it was issued as a renewal in 1998 with a five year grant of operation due to expire in 2003.

Still it says 45 mile radius of the given coordinates on the license.

As to the new gmrs licenses being given the right to use all of the gmrs freqs on any gmrs license =well i wont comment on that cause i dont know one way or another.

But being given the right to operate on frs with the gmrs license=i dont think so.

The frs band states no removable antennas and no more than i believe it was 250 milliwatts meaning a portable at even 2watts or a removable antenna would not be legal.

Take any mobile txing at even higher watts=well its definately out as far as legal.

Also gmrs freqs have been issued as IB in my area rather than gmrs=
Aparently the fcc is issueing the freq as both business and gmrs depending on the applicants form info.

As to the battlabs freq so all can talk=well it goes like this
TOGETHER WE STAND==DEVIDED WE FALL

Looks like we fall/cant seem to agree on a common freq.

Im leaving my radio home and going to hand signals.

EKLB

EKLB wrote:
But being given the right to operate on frs with the gmrs license=i dont think so.

The frs band states no removable antennas and no more than i believe it was 250 milliwatts meaning a portable at even 2watts or a removable antenna would not be legal.EKLB

Of course not on FRS, however, the first seven frequencies of FRS (462.5625- 462.7125) are GMRS frequencies shared with FRS. With it, you can operate up to 5 watts ERP on whatever equipment you want- 25Khz channel spacing, the other restriction is an antenna height not exceeding 20'.

Read up! http://www.fcc.gov/wtb/prs/genmbl.html

-Josh
WPTP753

If we dont agree, then I guess we are going to have to get Nextels

My two bits worth:
Should you find your self in Honolulu, you could use 462.625/467.625
PL 1A, 103.5
In the past I notified my FCC engineer that I would be operating out of area, and that was all there was to it. My licence is way pre '99 (26 yrs.)
Aloha, Bernie KAB4186, KH6IAH, & etc.

JAYMZ5329 wrote:I hate to be the party pooper but hasn't this subject been beaten to death? Pick a frequency in each band.....plus a couple of ham frequencies add a common PL and you are set.


IE.....

VHF MURS - 151.880 PL 94.8
UHF GMRS - 462.550 PL 94.8

2M HAM - 146.575 PL 94.8
70cm HAM - 446.825 PL 94.8

All compliments of last years Dayton radio Frequency Posts....only difference is the PL really....94.8 is easy for me to remember....

this is fine with me, i dont mind keeping it simple.....

Jonathan:
1. OK
2. Questionable.
3. OK.

crap I guess i cant use my mobile 100Watt spectra using a frs freq.

apco25 wrote:While I'm thinking of it there are 2 15 channel MSF5000 based Type trunked systems on ebay right now. Going for 41k! Lets pick that up and just cart it around to various parts of the country.

LOL, A few days ago, I was joking Code3Response about taking a MSF5000 up the elevator at a hotel in Dayton.

Imagine the looks the maid would give when there is a repeater in the corner of the hotel room.

So you guys actually going this year?

-Alex

At this point in time, I'm going......of coarse....LIFE HAPPENS sometimes, but as of now, YES>....


-RC-

Is there an "official" Batlabs hotel???

I plan on staying at either the Marriott or the Double Tree (downton)....

That's where most of the manufacturers stay.
You never know who will pick up the bar tab....

Rob

Stuff' sure is wierd in good-ol' Canada..

alex wrote:So you guys actually going this year?

-Alex

I hope so.

I won't be there Friday, for sure.

Saturday and Sunday are what I am looking into.

I most likely will be planning spending the night in my car, in the Salem Mall parking lot. Is this allowed? Actually, I think the question is more like "will I get caught?" This will save some serious $$$ on a hotel room that could go to much more important stuff: like radios.

This is my first time at Dayton, so I'd like to see what it is like.

Also, does anyone have tips for lugging around heavy old trunk-mounted mobiles, in the case that I buy a few? Lugging them in my backpack doesn't seem like a good idea for me (or my back.)