Batboard

Leveraging off of Bob's comment above, I have always wondered: Why do Hams use Motorola gear instead of the latest model Amateur radios? I've kidded about rice rockets, but in the last few years they have really seemed to have markedly improved in their performance qualities.

Seems like Kenwood, Icom, Yaesu/Vertex, etc. radios are a fraction of the cost (for a brand new warrantied radio), have 1,000 times the capabilities, are programmed simply with a PC in English, are much smaller, are Mil Spec anymore. Many of these handhelds are even water proof to 6 feet or so, better than a ruggedized Motorola (and a lot smaller). For instance, I think the radio Bob mentions, the Kenwood D700, has full VHF and UHF capabilities, plus a GPS system with data (and a data display head!) that gives the location of your mobile relative to other mobiles, right down to the distances apart, etc! I see the US Military uses $199 Icom portables for full blown combat duty as a Squad/Platoon level radio. Icom beat Motorola in this shootout! Sure Icom is dirt cheap, but they had to meet the same rigorous Military combat specs as Motorola tried to meet. Look who won! Used to be that commercial stuff had better specs, but that's no longer true.

I sure wish Icom made an FM VHF/UHF radio for my copter that was P25 with AES---I'd buy it in a New York minute! Probably would be $800 versus $12,000 for 2 ASTRO Spectras, plus a lot smaller. Darn!!

So what gives?!

Larry

Very good comments.

Couple sides to the coin. I'm a New York State EMT, as well as a HAM. I can't really use a HAM radio on the public safety band legally. Because of this, I'm bound to using a commercial moble and portable.

Now the question does remain - do I need an Astro Spectra, CDM1550, XTS, MT2000, etc. Hells no. Infact, not many people need more than 16-32 channels for their area. (Keep in mind I say not many people). However, I find the radios to actually suite my needs, wants, and desires, plus they are "cool" and all of them have exceptional audio, something I still think most of the amateur gear out there lacks. I wouldn't give up my astro stuff for a VX1/5/7/R. NO way in hell. The Astro stuff is so nice with the DSP. But hey, you get what you pay for.

When I was at dayton, Icom did have what looked to be a Amateur Digital Radio there. I didn't see much, or really pay close attention to it - but I'm under the impression that it might actually be under development. If so, that'll be pretty cool. At some point, amateurs will have to "go digital" because of their ARES, RACES, and all those things that will soon be using those systems that are digital. Maybe not for 5-7 years - but it could and probably will happen.... Much in the same sense one day you will only be able to watch DTV, no more analog stuff. But its a long ways off.

So there's a couple points of view, maybe .04 cents worth. However, I suggest if this conversation is to continue, someone start a new topic since most people who aren't going to dayton will have the opertunity to discuss. I'll try splitting the topic, though I've never done that before!

-Alex

[note] That was cool. For future reference, this was split from the Dayton topic where Bob brought up the point about being able to provide a D700A to use as a cross band repeater.

Read all about it at: http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=11279

I'll give my two cents and I'm not trying to offend anyone, just my opinion here. I have both commercial gear and HAM gear. I just don't see that the HAM gear is as ruggedized as the Moto, etc. stuff. My current HT is an ICOM IC-Z1A. I still works okay, but it is so beat up it isn't funny, and not like I beat on it that much. I had to get a new display etc. after I ran it over with my Polaris 4-wheeler. I've run over my Moto's many times without damage.

Currently I switched to HT600's for my outback adventures, could care less if they get run over. Don't want to run over my HT1250's because they are new, so use them mainly in the vehicle, might as well keep them looking like new. I can program my Moto's for both sides of the fence.

I haven't handled any of the new Vertex, Kenwood, etc. HT's, I'm happy with what I have. Again, just my opinion, like I said before, alot of it comes down to what we have.....whether we like Fords, Chevys or Dodges, etc., what we have is the best.

Heres a little info about those F3 Icoms that the DOD picked for GI use. Yep Icom won the radio tryout, But mainly because the the radio was light. This was one time that the brass let the GI pick what he thought was best. That little dinky radio with that little battery is light and the GI loved it. never mind how long the battery would last, what would happen if it rained. I can tell you from my 16 years in ground radio repair at a army post, Those F3s
are nothing more than throw away radios. An outfit would go to the field and if it rained lots of F3s go to DRMO. It was always funny
I had an outfit with Prc127s (BK radios) F3s, and MX300R. Those old MXs 20+ years old would take a licking and keep on ticking,
But those F3s(hey ICOM send us some more radios). But I will say the ICOM with all ACC. GSA price was under $250. Guess you get what you pay for.

I got started in commercial gear while living in a high RF level area. Nothing else was up
to the job of taming the strong signal overload of VHF paging in particular and that
occasional aircraft interfering with VHF. Also needed other parts of the spectrum and
amateur gear didn't have the multi PL's I needed. My 2m rig had one tone setting only.
Amateur gear as well as the non 'M' products have been getting much better in recent years.

heres something i would like to add, i have noticed many times, that ham radios dont sent out a subaudible terminating tone at the end of thier pl's transmission, resulting in a squelch tail on a radio that is recieving theier pl decoded signal. that really buggs me! typically motorola gear is set to put out that short carrier after the pl gets turned off so the reciever on the other end will close up with out a squelch tail. lately i have been on a quest to buy and learn about the older motorola programable radios, like the syntor the X and MCX100 radios, as well as the MX series, they all have exceptional recieve audio, excelent TX audio and the pl circuts work smooth. the rugged aspect is well worth mentioning too, i work for a municipal government and do lots of work around trucks, dirt, cement and my personal motorola radios stand up to all the abuse, my ft530 would not stand a chance. i have been a fan of motorola radios since the CHIPS days, gotta love the MOTRONICS speaker on some of the intors to the older chips shows! motorola was cool! i knew that when i was 4 years old.
got my ham license and my second radio was a motorola. had many of them since, some of the newer motorola stuff is dissapointing me,like the pro series... but i can definately stick with the older gear and still have great quality. thats my rant.

At least in my area.. the majority of hams look down or shake there heads at the "poor bastard/ judas's " ... who are using Motorola, Bendix and other gear. Everything else was covered, but one challenge I use to love was to take an MX and slide it 50-100 feet across concrete or throw it up in th air and ask them to do the same with the Ham HTs' .. to each his own and while the new Ham stuff is definitely getting tuffer, I also think its getting a little to small.

I've also known hams who get almost violent when you mention or show a Motorola radio. In my opinion it's nothing but ignorance and fear; ignorance of the overall subject, and fear that they'll be shown up for not knowing as much as they'd like to have other people think they know.

Lots of differences do exist between amateur and commercial gear, and some of the differences in some models (notice how I qualify that?) are meaningful. Overall, however, I would say that today's amateur gear, at least in some of the mfrs. lines, is definitely comparable to the same mfrs. commercial radios, both in electronic capability and ruggedness. Again, this is not a blanket statement as there is still some real ham junk being sold.

But a point also to keep in mind might be the new Motorola radios that have the cases which pop off when the radio is dropped. I mean, THAT'S good design?

Tom, W2NJS
...in D.C.

Couldn't agree more Tom, 'M' gear has been taking a nose dive in my opinion while
others like Vertex,Kenwood,Icom,etc. have been improving dramatically. Some of the newer Ham gear passes Mil Spec. in some catagories. With Vertex/Yaesu it appears that some of the Ham units are built on the platform of their Commercial line and then 'opened up' for Ham freq. agility. I think the gap between 'M' and the others is closing rapidly and then there's Motorola's arrogance which further tips the scales the other way. But- I still have a fondness for certain Motorola models none of which are current and probably will never be surpassed by current 'M' models or the competition.

In my case the STE (Squelch Tail Elimination) feature on a used GE Phoenix mobile caused me to buy one. Got tired of the squelch tail when I unkeyed etc while using one ham repeater.

Then I discovered something. This "new" radio didn't pickup all the intermod and other crap when I got in a high RF area. As funds and radios came available at the same time, I switched to Commercial Mobiles and HT's for Ham use. Since I also work in Public Safety and currently have low (30-36), high, uhf, 800 in my personal vehicle, this also allowed me to kill two birds with one stone. Work stuff and Ham in one radio. (with the exception of the 800)

Kinda get some weird comments on 10 FM when the other user asks "what kinda radio are you using?" and the reply comes back "Motorola Maratrac" though.

I miss some of the features on the newer ham rigs for general band scanning but not enough to put one back in the vechile. . .

Tony, KA3VOR

Darn, you guys covered everything already!

durability
great audio both TX and RX
security
no intermod
no squelch tail
makes other people angry

Long live the older models that they can't afford to make any longer
because of very poor management that has allowed the
competition to achieve the position of nearly equal overall in
current radios in the consumer and commercial markets except maybe the Astro line. They still got that. But for how long??

And as far as technologically advanced Features and Embedded Firmware, not to mention Completely Software Driven radios, Motorola has been unfourtuneately been left in the dust.
And it doesn't look like they are exactly working harder and
trying to catch up either.

Look to Harris for current high end radios. Motorola doesn't even
make anything even close to them.

!!!! THERE USED TO NOT BE ANY COMPETITION !!!!

Because they are better.

Gotta love that, "Makes other people angry" thing...
Scott

talviar wrote:
. . . Kinda get some weird comments on 10 FM when the other user asks "what kinda radio are you using?" and the reply comes back "Motorola Maratrac" though.

I miss some of the features on the newer ham rigs for general band scanning but not enough to put one back in the vechile. . .

Tony, KA3VOR

You want weird comments on 10FM? Use what I use: an HT200 with the 38 inch whip - 2w out on 29.6, so I guess the ERP is half a watt or so. It works though. I worked East Texas last week standing outside in front of my condo here in NJ.

Weird indeed. It's all good!

Happy New Year,

I use Motorola gear because it is the best. I wouldn't trade my motorolas for anything else but identical replacements (or higher tier /\/\).

I used to be a "bells and whistles" type guy. I still enjoy my kenwood D-700, which is pretty much a bells and whistles radio thru and thru (built in APRS and 9600 baud TNC).

I have noticed, though, that the "radio" performance of most ham rigs is almost second to displays, memory channels, and reciever coverage. DC to daylight coverage is nice....but the front end selectivity is so bad on some gear it is unbearable. So they give you an "attenuator" so you can desensitize the thing so an adjacent channel (maybe 50khz away!!) doesn't come crashing in.

I have no such problems with motorola gear. Case and point:
We have a repeater on 146.94 output. A town to the north started one up (or at least boosted the power) on 146.955. It was enough to cause adjacent channel interference on a lot of the locals' radios around here. Many of them had trouble using our repeater. I never noticed the problem, well at least not until I turned on the kenwood .

Motorola makes excellent RADIOS - key word here is radio. If you want a rugged transceiver with great audio, use a motorla. If you can settle for average tx/rx quality and performance then almost all amateur gear made today will do. They have a lot more features to play with, anyhow. I like to operate with a real radio, and that's why I go with motorola.

Hey, and where else do you get to hex edit to add more channels? Some hams struggle with programming the memory channels on Icom/kenwood/etc. Me, I like a good challenge.

I am also under the impression that most people think commercial gear will not operate on amateur bands. I don't know how to describe the looks I got when I brought my GP300 to a radio club meeting, and they heard the repeater ID come thru the speaker. I guess they were expecting an EMS or police call. It was very amusing.

I like almost all radios, but given a choice I pick motorla. So that is why I use commercial gear.

I guess this thread also begs the question "why are most AMATEUR repeaters made of COMMERCIAL gear?" Most of the ones around here are Motorola Micors, or GE master II's. Think about it....

-Bill
KC8QDR

kc2dhj wrote: "I need a radio that I can program on the fly" (LOL) and they always have a radio with 500 memories.

Same excuse around here. I just plan ahead and have the radio programmed before I might encounter something different. Not that I really need it but I have most of the Hudson Valley in my radios and I have 119 analog channels. That is stretching it too because I have Monroe County stuff for when I'm upstate. Oh well this too shall pass....

As I understand it, if you want to go digital trunked, Motorola is basically the only choice, right? Not as in, "they are the only choice b/c they are so good" (although that may be true), but "there is no one else in the market". Is that correct?

I ask because here in Baltimore, all the pub. safetys use mot digital trunked radios. They switched a little while ago with great fanfare. But my question is: how much money did our city overspend on such a system? Because you know those radios start at several thousand dollars each (XTS3000 for every officer/firefighter/medic, etc). Why do they need such expensive equipment when they're usually just pressing one button and talking?

Will someone else be coming out with an affordable alternative to motorola in this market?

(I am also annoyed with the system because I can't listen in...)

Commerical gear is great for ham if you have a very static range and use pattern. If your always in the same cities, and use the same repeaters then they work well and often outshine ham gear. For a daily radio they work fine and I have both UHF and VHF commerical radios on the ham bands. For your do everything ham radio the commercial gear is the pits. The lack of freq agility and the lack of a variable squelch control make them worthless in my opinion. I work a lot of simplex and commerical gear assumes PL, this is not the case on simplex ham radio (generally). For emergency communications I would not want to have a commerical gear unless its one of the field/front panel programmable types. Frequency agility is very important. The PRC-127, many of the bendix units, some of the keywords are great for keypad programming. Even some of the moto's, but most of these still lack that squelch control.

I had tested a lot of "japanese plastic" in the past and compared them to Motorola. All i found out is, that the biggest part of these HAM-rigs (even the newer ones) still sucks, compared to Moto. A amateur handheld, which has intermodulation-problems even with the standard rubber antenna on it, is only worth to throw it in the trash-container. There are only a few exceptions, like Yaesu FT-50, FT-10 or FT-40, for example. They also have good and powerful audio (very rare on HAM-portables). But most of the HAM-stuff for VHF/UHF is still scrap. Look at the circuit-diagrams: Only a handful of parts between the rf-amplifier-stage and the antenna - no preselection, only to match the pre-amp to 50 ohms - not more, gigantic receiver-tuning-ranges (who had the idea to put a 300-550Mc and 800-900Mc receiver, which works like sh..... into an 70cm-HAM-handheld???), cheap mixer designs, too broad x-tal-filters (poor selectivity), unlinear sensitivity (even with the super-broadband-amplifier-stage) and output power over the range (even within the HAM-band, which the radio was designed for). The list is almost endless.........

I`m very unsatisfied with most of the tested radios. That`s why i`m using more and more Moto-stuff for HAM-radio.

Keygun

Well, If you get a Spectra with 160 modes, program it up with the most popular ham splits, and enable user-selectable PL, and you've got your "program on the fly" radio right there.


Or what about an MT2000 with 255 channels?
I'm sure you could load that up with the most popular ham splits, I mean, how many can there be?

Let's see... using 15 kHz spacing...

145.20-145.50 - 20 channels
146.40-146.58 - 12 channels
146.61-146.97 - 24 channels
147.00-147.39 - 26 channels
147.42-147.57 - 10 channels

So, that's more or less 90 channels.
If you have a 255 mode radio, you can program all the splits, maybe in 2 zones, each zone with a different PL, just pick the one your area uses, and one from an adjoining area, and you still have 55 other channels.


So, who needs to program on the fly!!


Mike

Have a radio set up for repeater and talkaround and MPL you are good to go.

Well, if Motorola made an 800 channel radio with MPL, you'd be SET!


Mike

some more info on the military use of Japanese radios vs the motorolas.
Originally Moto had the contract for the army and marine personal communicators locked in at under 100 dollars per radio, it was a modified version of one of the FRS radios, unfortunately during a high level meeting with Chris Gavin and other high level types, one of the motorola Lawyers in the meeting recommended that motorola not go for it because, and this is the reason, he said for all parties in the meeting room to imagine CNN broadcasting a picture of a dead soldier with his Motorola personal communicator and the Motorola logo clearly visible, well that would shurely effect motorola sales and stock values would drop. Pretty stupid if you consider that Colt arms doesn't care and I'm sure their stock is not effected when a dead soldier is shown on the news with a M-16 lying next to him. You have to hand it to Motorola when they let the lawyers make the last decision, no wonder their stock is so low.


Mike

If you really want to compair 2 very similar radio's, then look no further than Yaesu. Look at their VX-150 and compair it to their VX-800. Take a good look at it. They have more in common than just the battery. The 150 vs. the 800 is a very good place to start.