Something to ponder about this hobby **READ**

[batdude]

i don't know if you guys have gotten the gist of what is going on lately, but there are some really serious charges against both the Atlanta and Michigan guys who are being prosecuted by the government.

i don't know best how to put this into words here on the batboard - but i would strongly suggest that everyone take heed of these events and realize that this is no laughing matter anymore.

#1 - screwing with trunking radios on PS systems is no longer "funny".

#2 - programming radios, possessing system keys, codeplugs, templates, ad naseum - is no longer "funny".

#3 - discussing/distributing/helping others with the ability to program radios onto PS systems is no longer "funny".

#4 - hacking / changing model #'s / changing feature sets - is no longer "funny".

you can go to radioreference.com to read the laundry list of charges against these guys - one of which is a SENIOR CITIZEN!

to put it lightly - you are now playing with fire toting around your hacked-to-be-on-the-system MTS/XTS/STX/ trunking radio. Think it's "cool" to add some channels to your PD buddies portable? Better think again.

even programming a radio with transmit capability onto a conventional PS channel could be construed in court as illegal access to a computer network.

do you have enough money to defend yourself against someone with unlimited legal resources?

i doubt anyone here does. I do not.


Doug[/b]

[10-95]

Bottom line on this whole thing is COMMON SENSE. Use some common sense and this hopefully will never be you. Don't advertise to the world all the neat stuff you can do! Don't hack a blabber mouth's radio, if you know the person you probably know them well enough to know if they can be trusted with info you provide them or if they are a blabber mouth. secrets are no longer secrets once at least two people know about it.

Frank

[Cowthief]

Hello.

Call it the homeland security effect.
The police are on a rampage to keep people away from the evil superadio.
This evil superadio must be stopped at all costs, founding fathers be damned.
This evil superadio.
Strange as it may seem, scanners and military radios seem to be OK, at least for now.
But that evil superadio!?

[videonerd]

I agree they should be prosecuted.

"Gave him computer software" - lets suppose that is RSS, which has a EUA, just like any other piece of commercial software. And I would say that radio templates are also tangible property. It's like stealing a design from a design firm, an internal strategic guide from a company, etc. However, reproducing a "radio template" from items such as trunker, that's a different story. That's like cheap imitation imports where you look at something that's already created, but you're not stealing their materials or work process - all you have to work with is examining the final product.

"...submitting a fraudulent invoice to a local 911 system." Yes, that would be illegal, wouldn't it?

"be able to communicate on the system without others eavesdropping" This is your friendly paranoid government working. I do not agree with that statement. But it's essentially what every public safety organization wants. The less accountable they are, the easier it is on resources to deal with such matters (until they become so big it's required.) And then they are truly, big brother.

----

From what I gather from the Detroit Free Press article, they were not trying to program radios to work as scanners, but fully functioning radios to interact with the system. To me, that is crossing the line.

Screwing with public safety systems is not funny. Like making crank 911 calls. Not funny. They got what they deserved.

If you're able to do it, it's not good to tell the world. ummm.. would someone plase post some RSSes to the board? same thing.

[VA3XDJ]

I think we can all agree that anyone who programs or uses a radio for transmitting on any type of system on which peoples lives depend on, be it fire, ems or police, and is not authorised to use should be fined and jailed.

I don't care what your excuse is, if they want you on their system they'll get you a radio.

Stop being a wanna-be, show-off or whacker and get a damn scanner. In the long run, you'll avoid being questionned by such authorities if found in possession of such a radio without proper justification. Especially if there has been a history of interference in the past, who do you think is going be be blamed?

This is serious business and should be treated as such.

What if someone steals such a radio from your house or your car -- who, aside from the thief, do you think is going to be held accountable when that radio is used in commission of a crime or deliberate and intentional interference is caused?

What if someone dies because of it? I sure as hell wouldn't want that on my conscience.

I hate enough the looks I get from people when I carry and use my radios without my uniform so I can definitely assure you that I wouldn't even dare think of programming PS frequencies in mine.

Agreed. Motorola radios have much louder, clearer and better sounding audio than most manufacturers radios but do you really want a cop asking you why you're using a two-way instead of a scanner? How about using a model they use? Is it stolen? Where'd you get it... I think you get the point.

Just my 2 cents, sorry for the rant.

[alex]

I agree with what doug says whole heartedly.

Gone are the days when people used to be able to go up to an LAPD officer, ask to borrow their portable for $50 bucks and read out the latest codeplug....

I tihnk I remember that story from the VERY old board.

At the same time - people pay a lot of money for this stuff. They also have to remember to hold their manufacturer responsible as well. If the manufacturer gives out the keys to the palace (or leaks out the key cutter) then they have to accept some level of liability for this crap going on.

I'm not saying the dumb ass who does this isn't liable either. They were the same idiot who actually loaded the radio and played. But the manufacturer does hold some level of responsibility.

Just my $0.02.

-Alex

[10-95]

A nice solution for the problem of unwanted users on a PS trunking system: ENCRYPTED CONTROL CHANNELS. It will eventually happen, you can count on that, and I can't wait to see all the posts from the cry babies wanting to know why they would do such a thing.

Frank

[nmfire10]

Hell, there are channels I am authorized for but rarely if ever need. I keep them programmed for RX only in most of my radios simply in case someone is in my truck screwing around or the radio is stolen.

Programming a radio with the ability to transmit for a user who is not authorized to do so is pretty dumb. Here's another clue... If you ask the person "why do you need to be able to transmit on this channel" and they start to tell you how special they are, they are lying. If they produce ID and paperwork, they are legit.

[MTS2000des]

Glad someone else noticed this. Doug when I tried to post a similar statement to Scan Atlanta, the board admin threatened to and I quote "ban anyone who posted on the subject". I was merely pointing out to the MISINFORMED people that think it is legal to download and posess RSS, system keys, etc on other people's TRS's that it IS serious business.

More and more people are getting popped. Yes, they are using the "homeland security" crap but the bottom line is the bottom line: it IS illegal to posess any RSS you didn't sign an EULA for, it IS (at least in Ga) a crime to posess a system key and attempt to access a trunking controller. The idiot on ScanAtlanta tried to tell me that the Walton county firemen were charged with "computer crimes" because they "used a county PC without permission". No, they were charged for their radio accessing a central controller but this dweeb (who also clamed to be a LEO) wanted to argue otherwise.

It isn't cool to be on a system you don't belong on. "I'm a ham" or "It only recieves" is not gonna hold water in court. You either need to be fully authorized on each and every system, have your radio programmed by authorized mehtods, or you need to get a scanner.

[2wayfreq]

Hi,
Sounds reasonable to me. So let me get this straight. A good majority of responsible, intelligent, radio buffs on this board possess ASTRO,MTX,MTS-2000 etc. and yes, DO have Police/Fire/Ambulance/Fed frequencies in thier radios..Ahem--((RECIEVE ONLY)) and listen just to be informed of a serious event unfolding in a capacity that does not put any public safety/Fire/Disaster personnel in any danger or interferes with thier duties. That is the "Side of the Fence" I'm on.

If a person is Indeed not using that gray matter in the skull cavity and thinks it would be funny or whatever to put TX/System Access keys etc. in thier radios and play hacker, That would definitely be a different story. Unfortunately folks, many authorities are not going to care either way or will not be able to make the distinction of these two things.

And, whatever "means" you have to program you radio gear no matter how you got it, dont let it lay on a desk or sitting as an Icon on your PC. Keep it under lock and key, password protected, etc.

[batdude]

some differences here need to be pointed out.


in the atlanta case, it appears that radios were reprogrammed to listen in to surrounding jurisdictions - a good idea - *IF* you have permission from those jurisdictions to have such information in your radio. Such actions, even well-intentioned ones- raise the question of the legality of such actions....i won't even begin to get into cross-jurisdictional politics - especially in the atlanta area. you have politicians up there who are hell-bent, and re-elected every year - just because they excel at peeing in the surrounding areas cherrios.


in the michigan case, it appears that some radios were obtained by individual (A), programmed by individuals (B) and/or (C) and bought by individual (D) - all for legitimate use on the michigan state system. the fact that individual (D) used 911 funds (legit?) to pay for the radios in question seems to have gotten him into hot water, along with the sale of the radios by (A) and re-programming by (B) and (C).

the problem here is that (A) was "accused of obtaining stolen or illegally manufactured Motorola radios". Who knows what that means. To me, illegally manufactured = a nick whore radio. Apparently (B) and (C) either provided the codeplugs or did the reprogramming for the radios. All (D) did was...."his goal was to provide more equipment for his fire department to legitimately use the system in a cost-effective way. We were trying to get more for less, which is what small, volunteer fire departments have to do".

So here's a 63 year old man, who has the opportunity to purchase some radio equipment at 1/2 the cost of new stuff. He is guilty of trying to get the most bang for his buck. The allegations against (A) are that he illegally manufactured radios. Sounds like crap to me - XTS radios are readily available on the second-hand market these days. Now the actions of (B) and (C) - programming or providing the equipment to program (system key/templates) are probably the "most guilty" here. If all (A) did was obtain some radios, there is certainly no crime there. But in big systems like this, programming and loading of radios onto the system is controlled by (normally) a central agency - mainly to ensure that the system is kept up to date with ID's and such (and to prevent "ghosts"). On this 9600bps system - any radio programmed onto the system WILL affiliate, so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if the ID's were not in the system, they'd get flagged upon affiliation.

i'm sure time will tell on both cases, but people need to keep the charges above in mind when posting/replying to requests for information here on the board and otherwise.

IRT the "encrypted control channel" - well, great idea - and very easy to implement.

BUT

(someone correct me here if i am wrong)

there is no APCO spec for doing this. if one COULD do it - that's great. but all the grant money that i am aware of from the Fed requires a P25 compliant system to be purchased. Since Apco doesn't have a P25 compliant spec for the encrypted control channel.... you're SOL. No spec = No compliance = no $$$$.


this (encrypted control channel) argument would also put a small dent in "interoperabily" as well.


doug

[10-95]

Hi,
Sounds reasonable to me. So let me get this straight. A good majority of responsible, intelligent, radio buffs on this board possess ASTRO,MTX,MTS-2000 etc. and yes, DO have Police/Fire/Ambulance/Fed frequencies in thier radios..Ahem--((RECIEVE ONLY)) and listen just to be informed of a serious event unfolding in a capacity that does not put any public safety/Fire/Disaster personnel in any danger or interferes with thier duties. That is the "Side of the Fence" I'm on.

If a person is Indeed not using that gray matter in the skull cavity and thinks it would be funny or whatever to put TX/System Access keys etc. in thier radios and play hacker, That would definitely be a different story. Unfortunately folks, many authorities are not going to care either way or will not be able to make the distinction of these two things.

And, whatever "means" you have to program you radio gear no matter how you got it, dont let it lay on a desk or sitting as an Icon on your PC. Keep it under lock and key, password protected, etc.

Nicely said. Again, good common sense , which hopefully most of us have.
As for incrypted control channels, it will happen , probably sooner than later. As with everything in life, never say never.

Frank

[Cowthief]

Hello.

The strange part of this is that everyone assumes you NEED a system key, etc.
Look at the transcrypt radios, you need nothing but the fleet/subfleet info and control channels.
Every military radio I carry can do whatever channel and mode, just by putting in the numbers.
There are no real controls on military radios due to the total ease of availability.
Anyone can buy a current generation made in China copy, no questions asked.
The latest soft radio made by our friends in China do ALL trunking formats.
The type I trunking patents have expired.
The type II trunking patents will expire in the middle of 2005.
none of this applies to military radios as they are not type accepted, in ANY country.

[MTS2000des]

The issue of having a Motorola radio set to "rx only" while that may keep you out of the water with the FCC as far as not having transmit capability, the core issue of intellectual property comes up. the bottom line is Motorola RSS was used to load such information into the radio. A system key was generated or obtained. If neither came from ma M with signed EULA or system key from system admin, in most states, you could be charged with a computer crime, not to mention federal copyright statutes.
Posession is 9/10's of the law.

While these cases do differ, the underlying message is the same as Doug put it. It isn't cool to program trunking radios on a government radio system nor share "sacred" information. There is little if any justification for being in posession of such radio and items if you aren't authorized to have them. If someone wishes to make a case, all the pieces are there to send one to prison for a while and no doubt cost them alot of money and time.

Of course some activities will draw attention more than others. Programming other people's radios is on the top of the list, so is showing up in public places or accident scenes with a "cop" radio programmed to "cop" channels but then again if an official is out to make a case, they won't have to look hard if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time and fit the bill.

The word is out.

[Batman]

Well guess what. it all over. I say 10 years from now the amateur radio, scanning and electronics tinkering will be over with. what ever it is will either be illegal or somebodys proprietary intellectual property which in my boo kwill be the same thing. public safety will be encrypted full time. hams will be obsolete and extinct. tilering will be considered a crime against national or world security, in the case the NWO has been established by then. government will have no acountability, like they do now. it will be a ripe envirionment for the ant-christ to rise to power. yep enjoy it while you can cause it's all over. Freedom and the US constitution will just be a peice of history you tell your children about.

[batdude]

and i forgot to add....


IN MY OPINION -


radioreference.com and it's vast trunking info resource - IS THE NEXT TARGET.




doug

[Heterodyne]

What a great thread.

I'm sure all of us know a few idiots who take the whole "discrete is elite" mantra that we all in this thing of ours obey and cherish and totally toss it out the window.

This is required reading for the fools among us who insist on wearing our radios in public along with other emergency personel paraphernalia and continue to say "Well, there's nothing wrong with it".

Those who continue to refuse to learn life's lessons will continue to ruin it for everyone.

[MTS2000des]

Doug wait until someone else gets popped and it comes out that the majority of the data needed to program such radios came from Lindsay's site. There is no legit need for some of the information posted there (and on other sites) to program a scanner radio. The only reason why someone would want such information is to program a trunking radio on someone else's system without permission. No legit user would require such, their radio would be programmed by authorized personnel or they would be given such data by the sys admin.

Some may say this is the "end" but it was only a matter of time. The clowning around has gone on for a long time, it has become too rampant, and it is just a natural process of evolution in communications technology. remember the days of AMPS cellphones and cloning fraud? does it still go on? yes, in third world countries. but the evolution of cellular/PCS systems to digital and encryption put a stop to THAT type of fraud but fraud in other forms still continues (SIM burning, account fraud, etc) but to much less degree than when Mr. Bob Grove produdly proclaimed how he could violate ECPA in front of congress in 1997 (what a moron).

[Cowthief]

Hello.

Cellular fraud is with us to this day.
The early NextHell units could easily be put in fraud, by "burning" a chip.
Look for 'burnout phone' on the web.
The IMEI gets changed on handsets all the time, some Russians are really good at this.
SIM card clone? look no further than ebay!
Digital is just that, a bunch of digits.
Take 4096 decimal and convert it to hex, binary, etc, what do you see?
The reason for the ECPA of 1986 was to serve both the cellular industry and the press.
It makes it against the law to listen to cellular telephones.
It makes it against the law to listen to press relay radio and television.
It has very little to do with actual fraud, that was just the smoke and mirror show.

[10-95]

Reading some of these post you'd think we still live in the era of Joseph Mccarthy or something. Why don't you mail all your trunked radios to me. I want you all to be safe from the G-Man, send me your radios and be done with it, I hate to think you may be cowering in a corner over the idea that the G-Man is coming for you. If you are not responsible enough to own a trunked XTS without keying up the local system all the time than you need to buy a scanner and send me your radio. If you are not waving the radio around in public telling anyone who will listen what you have in the radio you'll probably be o.k. If you are not programming PS systems in radios for every goober head who will pay you to do so you are probably ok. If you are not selling the RSS CD's on Ebay you are probably going to be o.k. If you are not using your PS trunked radio in the commision of a crime you are probably O.K. If you have a brain and it still functions well you'll probably be able to know right from wrong and what not to do. And don't post on public forums requesting system keys, if you do this you are a dumb a@@ who deserves to get popped.


Run for your lives , the G-man is sleeping with Motorola and they are gonna git ya sucka!

[batdude]

frank, while i certainly agree with some of your general "sky is falling" comments - there has been and i fear will continue to be - a big shift in how these cases are pursued and prosecuted.

prior to the various network security laws being in effect, and definately prior to the era of "homeland security" - most if not ALL of the cases where motorola went after people were CIVIL actions regarding RSS. big difference between a civil action and one where you will go to jail for 15 years.

i will tack on one final stinger for today though.

almost without exception, all of the prosecuted cases where motorola has 'gone after' someone was the result of either A>programming radios for personal/professional use (atlanta) - or B>selling radios that had been modified or were stolen.


doug

[10-95]

Batdude Wrote:

almost without exception, all of the prosecuted cases where motorola has 'gone after' someone was the result of either A>programming radios for personal/professional use (atlanta) - or B>selling radios that had been modified or were stolen


Exactly! I will say this from one of my visits at the local FBI office. They want to get anybody programming radios for criminal use. They want to get anybody with restricted encryption devices. The FBI does maintain a database of stolen/missing government two way equiptment and you do not want them comparing the serial on your radio to that list if you are not sure of the history of you nice high end radio. The FBI has paid numerous visits to the Dayton ham vention for that purpose.

Frank

[2wayfreq]

Hmm,
Well, I guess in that case, batboard has a problem because oh lemme see, what does it cover? --> Discussion/help with programming radios,keys,trunking,modifying etc. etc. So, is this site at risk?

[alex]

Hmm,
Well, I guess in that case, batboard has a problem because oh lemme see, what does it cover? --> Discussion/help with programming radios,keys,trunking,modifying etc. etc. So, is this site at risk?

So....

I guess it's a question of how you precieve it. You don't find the information that you program into your radio here. You don't find system keys. You don't find rss here. You don't find the gun, ammo, and the sights here. You find tips and information about the guns, ammo, sights, etc, and how best to use them... think of guns as a radio, ammo as RSS, maybe sights as the software to "shoot" your radio with new data...

There is a difference here. You will find the help on how to configure something, but if you look at the people who are posting here - and read posts about trunked stuff - what's the first thing most people say - talk to the system administrator. Or guide people in the direction of buying a scanner depending on their usage.

Trunkedradio/radioreference is in a whole other ballpark. They have a lot of the data above and beyond what might be needed by the average human being to program a scanner.

Regardless, be careful, and use your head.

-Alex[/u]

[VA3XDJ]

There is a difference here. You will find the help on how to configure something, but if you look at the people who are posting here - and read posts about trunked stuff - what's the first thing most people say - talk to the system administrator. Or guide people in the direction of buying a scanner depending on their usage.

Trunkedradio/radioreference is in a whole other ballpark. They have a lot of the data above and beyond what might be needed by the average human being to program a scanner.

Regardless, be careful, and use your head.

Amen to that!

This should be a sticky or at least written somewhere in the rules to discourage people from coming over here and asking these types of questions -- such as the Maxtrac that was "found" at someone's work... It could be true, but personally I don't buy it.

Also, places like radioreference and trunkedradio require a lot more personal information (from what i hear, i actually don't listen to trunking here -- EDACS/Provoice makes it useless) and if ever they were taken to court, that information could be used for further prosecution.

Bottom line: Its ok to listen in the privacy of your own home, but don't repeat it, make money selling the information heard and in some cases don't listen to it in a car -- PS mostly that is. Thats the law here in Canada anyway.

If you're going to program it for trunking, don't publicise yourself as doing so/looking to do so and don't brag or show it off -- thats just asking for it.

I don't know half as much as most seasoned users of the board and techs, but I've learned a great deal about my favorite hobby here and would hate to see it dissapear because of a "few morons pissing in the water cooler."

[editted twice for formatting, new at this...]

[N9LLO]

I really hate these threads where people pretend to be laywers, Its almost as bad as an FCC rules thread. Lots of misinformation. IMHO they are worse than the send me RSS posts.

At least batdude got it right when he added ...

and i forgot to add....


IN MY OPINION -


Chris

[jhooten]

So....

I guess it's a question of how you precieve it. You don't find the information that you program into your radio here. You don't find system keys. You don't find rss here. You don't find the gun, ammo, and the sights here. You find tips and information about the guns, ammo, sights, etc, and how best to use them... think of guns as a radio, ammo as RSS, maybe sights as the software to "shoot" your radio with new data...

There is a difference here. You will find the help on how to configure something, but if you look at the people who are posting here - and read posts about trunked stuff - what's the first thing most people say - talk to the system administrator. Or guide people in the direction of buying a scanner depending on their usage.

Trunkedradio/radioreference is in a whole other ballpark. They have a lot of the data above and beyond what might be needed by the average human being to program a scanner.

Regardless, be careful, and use your head.

-Alex[/u]

I must have missed them. Just where are the RSS and System Keys on RadioReference.com?

And discussions on this site about how to program the radio to monitor the TRS, just be sure to never let your radio affiliate, are better because?

Alex the target on your back is just as big as the one on Lindsay"s.

[videonerd]

...."his goal was to provide more equipment for his fire department to legitimately use the system in a cost-effective way. We were trying to get more for less, which is what small, volunteer fire departments have to do".

So if something went wrong with the outside-of-normal-purchase-channel radios, who would be responsible? For something like PS, I sure hope the cops aren't buying radios off eBay... they're definately more expensive coming from Big Mama, but if something goes wrong with those radios, accountability has to come from somewhere.

[alex]

So....

I guess it's a question of how you precieve it. You don't find the information that you program into your radio here. You don't find system keys. You don't find rss here. You don't find the gun, ammo, and the sights here. You find tips and information about the guns, ammo, sights, etc, and how best to use them... think of guns as a radio, ammo as RSS, maybe sights as the software to "shoot" your radio with new data...

There is a difference here. You will find the help on how to configure something, but if you look at the people who are posting here - and read posts about trunked stuff - what's the first thing most people say - talk to the system administrator. Or guide people in the direction of buying a scanner depending on their usage.

Trunkedradio/radioreference is in a whole other ballpark. They have a lot of the data above and beyond what might be needed by the average human being to program a scanner.

Regardless, be careful, and use your head.

-Alex[/u]

I must have missed them. Just where are the RSS and System Keys on RadioReference.com?

And discussions on this site about how to program the radio to monitor the TRS, just be sure to never let your radio affiliate, are better because?

Alex the target on your back is just as big as the one on Lindsay"s.

I didn't say there were on his site, and that's certainly what was not ment.

He does have the system ID's (intergral in making system keys IIRC), connect tones, control channels mapped out, dec->hex conversions done for you etc. You don't get that sort of information from here.

You might get some direction on what part of the programming you might have messed up, or maybe how to punch the data in here, but your not going to find the raw data etc here.

I guess that's what i'm trying to say.

I'm sure this site does have a target painted on it - to some extent. I also do not own this site, the board, or really much of anything. I'm just the luckily appointed administrator who tries to enforce the rules.

-Alex

[Do-Anything]

Maybe Microsoft will also come knocking when they find out your using a bookleg copy of XP to run the CPS program with. This stuff goe's on everywhere every day. Got this from a Yahoo group I belong too. How can the Pd bust you when it looks like they are one of the biggest offenders? Thanks for reading this.

From: John
To: IC-2720@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:49 PM
Subject: [IC-2720] Radios for Sale



I've got a few radios that have been lying around for quite a while
and are getting little to no use.

1. IC-T2A handheld in excellent condition. Has seen very very
little use. Has been modified to xmit on Public Safety freq. Never
used for anything other than monitoring. Will include programming
cable and software if I can find it. $55.00 obo.

2. IC-2720 Bought this just last month but I really need something
with an alphanumeric display. Has been modified to xmit on Public
Safety freq. Never used to xmit was mounted in my patrol car and
used it to monitor Houston PD and other surrounding agencies. Just
cant remeber which freq. is which channel. Gets confusing. Will
include programming cable and software with the radio. In original
box w/ paperwork. $300.00 obo.

If you have any questions please feel free to contact me

[RESCUE161]

He does have the system ID's (intergral in making system keys IIRC), connect tones, control channels mapped out, dec->hex conversions done for you etc. You don't get that sort of information from here.

You might get some direction on what part of the programming you might have messed up, or maybe how to punch the data in here, but your not going to find the raw data etc here.

I guess that's what i'm trying to say.
-Alex

All of that raw data is broadcast over the air. As soon as you run a scanner with Trunker software, all of that data pops up on the screen. I guess having a scanner/computer will be banned before too long...

This is a modern day witch hunt. I hate to think that more people are gonna burn before this whole thing 'blows' over, but I know better. It just sucks, plain and simple.

[jayres]

...."his goal was to provide more equipment for his fire department to legitimately use the system in a cost-effective way. We were trying to get more for less, which is what small, volunteer fire departments have to do".

So if something went wrong with the outside-of-normal-purchase-channel radios, who would be responsible? For something like PS, I sure hope the cops aren't buying radios off eBay... they're definately more expensive coming from Big Mama, but if something goes wrong with those radios, accountability has to come from somewhere.

Well, as far as Public Safety buying from EBay... it happens, on a large basis... simply because a lot of the departments can't afford new equipment and are scrounging just to get by... I'm not talking about just fire departments... but also law enforcement... Right now one of the law enforcement agencies that I work with has 3 of my personally owned mobile radios, because their older equipment is crapping out on them, and they can't afford to buy new... In the bigger areas, it must be nice to have new... but out in the sticks... you take what you can get...

Just my 2 cents, and venting at a wonderful overnite shift...

[ExKa|iBuR]

Well, just my 2 cents, but...

If you're in the business of programming radios for anybody but yourself and you aren't a licensed user, you're asking for trouble.

If you program radios to access ANY system, conventional or trunked, that the person isn't authorized on, you deserve every bit of heat you have coming your way.

Like Bryan said, showing off your fancy Astro Saber or whatever in public might look cool...until it gets the attention of the wrong person. Generally speaking, the only radio I take with me when I leave the house is my Yaesu FT60. Sure, it might not look "cool", but it does everything I would ever need it to.


Bottom line is that if you're intelligent enough to know how to program your radios, etc... you should be intelligent enough to know that you should NOT be transmitting where you shouldn't be. I have a friend who wanted to buy an MTX8000 for the local police service. He asked me how to program it so it would transmit, but I told him there was no way I would tell him, nor should he be doing it. When I asked him why he'd want to, he simply said "Because I can"...well, that's the kind of attitude that gets you in hot water.

-M

[CTAMontrose]

that reminds me of this hammy here when asked about his HT1000 by mall security replied "its a radio, just like yours"

gee i wonder why he got banned from the mall for a year.

[VA3XDJ]

Thats exactly why I chose to buy GP300s to replace my HT600s and MT1000.

Most PS agencies here that run conventional use the HT1000s so to avoid being asked all kinds of questions, again, out of uniform, I decided to avoid that scenario alltogether.

The GP300 and P1225 are, however, very popular with cleaners so I figured it would attract less attention, especially when doing surveillance.

Anyhow, before this gets locked or tagged as off-topic, I'll park it here.

Oh, speaking of HT1000s, how much do they sell for these days?

The local shop where I got my GP300s sell them for around 500$ USED. I think thats a little high but they include a new battery and sometimes new antenna and charger. I like these guys because they been around for years and I know the tech personally. Looking at the 438-470 split with 16 channels.

[N9LLO]

that reminds me of this hammy here when asked about his HT1000 by mall security replied "its a radio, just like yours"

gee i wonder why he got banned from the mall for a year.

I wonder too. That is no reason to be banned from the mall. I wonder if the mall manager knows his rent-a-cops are idiots? Anyway I cant imagine a cop stopping me asking about a radio on my belt. They should have better things to do. Lets see, I have about 650 MTX's issued at work.
At the plant across the street they use (hundreds) of HT1250's and HT1000's. Between the two of us large auto plants we outnumber all the public safety and whacker mall cop issued radios and the HAMS combined in the county. At lunch time every other guy at every fast food place/bar in town is packin RF. WE outnumber them HA.

Chris
N9LLO

[JAYMZ]

It's probably been said before but it all comes down to common sense. If you don't use any (or have any for that matter) you are going to get yourself all jammed up. You don't take your pimped out XTS3000 to the airport when picking someone up... it raises questions.

A little common sense and discretion goes a long way.

[Cowthief]

Hello.

First off, the airport is the last place you will have trouble with.
There are such a large number of motorola talkies it is not funny.
everybody from the limo driver to the rock concert promo people have the latest.
You see travel consultants with with several radios all the time.
And, as far as the law goes, I should know.

[batdude]

just ask my buddy who got the anal exam from TSA when flying out for dayton last year.

my xts was packed away, his was on his hip.

as soon as it hit the conveyor belt - it was "sir, please step over here"

followed by the litany of why in the hell he was carrying an astro radio in the airport.... and why the radio looked just like theirs.


doug

[Cowthief]

Hello.

The post was about somebody going to pick someone up at the airport.
If you have a talkie with you chit-chatting, the TSA may look at you with the odd look.
If you have a talkie on your belt, no clear answer as to why you have it, then you may have a problem.

[CTAMontrose]

that reminds me of this hammy here when asked about his HT1000 by mall security replied "its a radio, just like yours"

gee i wonder why he got banned from the mall for a year.

I wonder too. That is no reason to be banned from the mall. I wonder if the mall manager knows his rent-a-cops are idiots? Anyway I cant imagine a cop stopping me asking about a radio on my belt. They should have better things to do. Lets see, I have about 650 MTX's issued at work.
At the plant across the street they use (hundreds) of HT1250's and HT1000's. Between the two of us large auto plants we outnumber all the public safety and whacker mall cop issued radios and the HAMS combined in the county. At lunch time every other guy at every fast food place/bar in town is packin RF. WE outnumber them HA.

Chris
N9LLO

im quite sure that it wasnt the fact that it was an HT1000, hell ive been in there listening to them.. im sure it was that he had the mentality of "dont like it, well screw you" that got him into trouble. No one has ever questioned my radios, but if asked, i would be respectful to them and tell them that its just receive only but i am licensed to transmit on other frequencies programmed in the radio.

respect is a 2 way street

[Pj]

just ask my buddy who got the anal exam from TSA when flying out for dayton last year.

my xts was packed away, his was on his hip.

as soon as it hit the conveyor belt - it was "sir, please step over here"

followed by the litany of why in the hell he was carrying an astro radio in the airport.... and why the radio looked just like theirs.


doug

Not to get too far off topic, but then there is me... I flew out of CT to LAX with a laptop bag stuff with:

Laptop
GPS
Two AS3's
ICOM W32
Inverters, power supplies, spare batteries, nextel, all sorts of computer cords...

And no one blinked....at BDL or LAX.

[spectragod]

secrets are no longer secrets once at least two people know about it.

Frank

Two people CAN keep a secret, as long as one is dead.

SG

[spareparts]

Any have a MOU that outlines use of another agencies radio system? I'm looking for the actual legal text to use as a staring point

This MOU for a for SAR group I help with to use a conventional system that's owned by another SAR agency.

Hopefully this will prevent problems if there's a management change (there's an informal arrangement in place now with nothing in writing)

Martin

[OX]

that reminds me of this hammy here when asked about his HT1000 by mall security replied "its a radio, just like yours"

gee i wonder why he got banned from the mall for a year.

The last time I checked, the HT1000 was not a government radio, it was a commercial radio. Just because my HT1000 looks like your HT1000 doesn't mean jack.

As for the witch hunt, sounds like the hunt is on....here.

/rant

[SlimBob]

It isn't cool to be on a system you don't belong on. "I'm a ham" or "It only recieves" is not gonna hold water in court. You either need to be fully authorized on each and every system, have your radio programmed by authorized mehtods, or you need to get a scanner.

I think the beep when you push the PTT button is pretty obvious it doesn't transmit, and if it isn't it'd probably be a good idea to insist the radio be taken as evidence...

[SlimBob]

Hello.

The post was about somebody going to pick someone up at the airport.
If you have a talkie with you chit-chatting, the TSA may look at you with the odd look.
If you have a talkie on your belt, no clear answer as to why you have it, then you may have a problem.

"Why is that radio on your belt?"

"Because my hands were full."

[MTS2000des]

It isn't cool to be on a system you don't belong on. "I'm a ham" or "It only recieves" is not gonna hold water in court. You either need to be fully authorized on each and every system, have your radio programmed by authorized mehtods, or you need to get a scanner.

I think the beep when you push the PTT button is pretty obvious it doesn't transmit, and if it isn't it'd probably be a good idea to insist the radio be taken as evidence...

we aren't just talking about FCC regulations here, we are talking about STATE LAWS regarding accessing communication networks and federal intellectual property laws that are violated when one:

a)-posesses RSS, system keys and programs radios with it.
(the fact that one has said radio in their posession with traffic coming out of it from such system is good enough for confiscation and further investigation)

b)-circumstances of contact (being in public blaring your local PD tg's for example)

I don't need to be consult a lawyer to know that running a stop sign is against the law, and there can be consequences. The signs are clear that the word is out to sys admins and LEO's to BOLO for radios being illegally programmed. they are LOOKING at this as a "infiltration" of "their" communications networks which by most of these state law cases is what folks are being charged with. They will do time and they are being used as examples. You can heed the warning or you can play ignorant to the possible consequences which lie ahead. I say why put oneself at risk at all. I have better things to spend money on than attorney retainers, bond, fines and fees, etc. I think it much easier to go out and get the proper training, get involved with a reserve program, etc if you want to play with such toys. I know, I know, that involves work and commitment...

You can try to use any reasoning you wish, and that is fine. But these are the times we live in and apparently the populous has decided that they are willing to give up those freedoms we once held dear to feel "safer" so this is yet one of the many prices we all must pay. Welcome to the new America 2.0, Safer than ever! Just like AOL!

[redbeard]

I was dumpster diving one night as a local mall when a cop pulled up and was questioning me about my activities. He looked in to my vehicle and saw my Uniden BC250 scanner in it's holder on the side of the dash. As soon as he saw it, the avalanche of questions started. "Why do you have that" "What are you listening to with that" "Did you know scanners are illegal in Pennsylvania?"

Keep in mind that the scanner was off, I was not using it to listen to see if the cops were called, etc. which IS illegal. I told him I listen to various agencies around the area, and when asked why I said for curiousity and entertainment. That's when he laid the whopper on me and told me scanners were illegal. Flabbergasted that he would even say such a nonsensical thing, I waffled on my response and said that I didn't believe they were instead of just flat out telling him he was incorrect. I then stated that I am a ham radio operator, and even if there was such a law that I am exempt due to federal law. He seemed to buy that statement, but not without looking at my ham license that I showed him first.

Moral of the story? It's not about the radio you're carrying, it's what you are doing to get the attention of a LEO while you have a radio with you. After that it's just one more excuse for them to question your motives. I'm sure a lot more would have been made of things had the scanner been turned on and locked to the local PD dispatch freq. He did let me go, with a warning that they don't allow people to do that without permission of the property/store owners.

Oh, and I don't really care what anyone thinks of my dumpstering antics. It's much cheaper grabbing boxes and styrofoam peanuts from store bins than buying it at Staples. Plus I get a new toy every once and awhile if I hit the right bin. Office Max seems to throw everything away that's returned to the store, broke or not.

As for the TSA grabbing someone for having a fancy radio on their belt, that's a bit extreme. So what if it looked like what they were using, doesn't mean you were trying to listen to or disrupt their comms. Even if you were listening, that's no crime. At PBZ, you can't even go to the Airmall without passing security. Plenty of people with real reasons to have a portable with them go through there. Just looking the same doesn't mean it's even in the same band.

[KG6EAQ]

As for the TSA grabbing someone for having a fancy radio on their belt, that's a bit extreme. So what if it looked like what they were using, doesn't mean you were trying to listen to or disrupt their comms. Even if you were listening, that's no crime. At PBZ, you can't even go to the Airmall without passing security. Plenty of people with real reasons to have a portable with them go through there. Just looking the same doesn't mean it's even in the same band.

I doubt a $25k/yr TSA agent even knows, or cares what bandsplit your radio is. They're there to look for suspicious item or people. The AVERAGE citizen has NO USE for an XTS3000. Yes in our little radio world it's perfectly reasonable, but to the rest of the world (And the especially the TSA agents) seeing Joe Blow carrying one of the radios, especially if it is the same type they use comes off as suspicious to them! What we think is normal about radios is really no where close to what the general population does.