grounding/ electrical

[lunzac]

hey guys
ive been working on putting a few toys into my 2000 f-150 for the past few months and just wanted to make sure i am doing it properly especially in terms of the electrical connections. here are some of my questions....

grounding
i heard lighting and radio grounds should be sepperate... how do you do this? i was under the assumption that any ground in a vehicle adventually made it back to the battery - anywas. also should my stereo be a 3rd seperate ground?
should grounds be run to the battery - terminal or attached to the vehicle body? if vehicle body then where and how?
ive heard of adding an aditional grounding wire to the battery and then attaching it to the engine block, computer housing, tranny, ect... is this important/ good idea/ neccesary?
is the OEM wire from the battery to the vehicle body sufficient or should that be upgraded?
what about the ground comming out of my switch box? can that just get connected anywhere or does it need to go together with the rest of the lighting grounds?

Wire type/ size
in terms of wire guage, do you use the same breakdown as for AC. i.e. 12 awg- 20 amp, 10 awg- 30 amp, 8 awg- 40 amp, 6 awg 60 amp, 4 awg 80 amp, 2 awg 100 amp? i think those are right at least.... i may be off on some of the larger wire capacities.
in terms of type of wire, what kind should i use and what large chain stores or websites can i get it at?
also for the wire i have running from the LED flashers to the actual lights does it really matter worth a hill of beans what type/ size i use on account of none of the loads are above 1 or 2 amps.

connections
whats the best way to splice two wires together? right now i am using crimp barrels. also i am using terminal blocks to terminate all the switches in my switch boxes and then another set of terminal strips to terminate the end of all the LED heads. i then put the fork style crimp connector on the end of all the wires on the flasher and connect them to the correct places on the two terminal strips.


i think thats about it. i know its a lot of questions but if anyone wants something to talk about and explain to me or reference me to a book, website, pamphlet, ect that would be great.

lastly, just wondering if anybody has any contacts in mpls/ st paul, mn that do a good job on vehicle installs and wouldnt mind me tagging along and watching and learning. i just want to make sure i am not getting into any bad habbits as i am just begining to get into installs and maybe learn some good tips along the way too.



thanks so much

-zach

[Squad581]

grounding
i heard lighting and radio grounds should be sepperate... how do you do this? i was under the assumption that any ground in a vehicle adventually made it back to the battery - anywas. also should my stereo be a 3rd seperate ground? should grounds be run to the battery - terminal or attached to the vehicle body? if vehicle body then where and how?
ive heard of adding an aditional grounding wire to the battery and then attaching it to the engine block, computer housing, tranny, ect... is this important/ good idea/ neccesary?

Yes, ideally you should have a separate ground for each device, as close to each device as possible. i.e. If your switch box needs a ground, try to find a piece of frame/body (metal) as close to the box as possible and terminate to that point. The shorter the ground, the better luck you should have with your device not overheating, interference, etc.

is the OEM wire from the battery to the vehicle body sufficient or should that be upgraded?

Generally, this wire is more than sufficient.

what about the ground comming out of my switch box? can that just get connected anywhere or does it need to go together with the rest of the lighting grounds?

See above.

Wire type/ size
in terms of wire guage, do you use the same breakdown as for AC. i.e. 12 awg- 20 amp, 10 awg- 30 amp, 8 awg- 40 amp, 6 awg 60 amp, 4 awg 80 amp, 2 awg 100 amp? i think those are right at least.... i may be off on some of the larger wire capacities.
in terms of type of wire, what kind should i use and what large chain stores or websites can i get it at?
also for the wire i have running from the LED flashers to the actual lights does it really matter worth a hill of beans what type/ size i use on account of none of the loads are above 1 or 2 amps.

Regarding the breakdown of amps/wire, you can get a bit more out of DC on a wire than with AC so I would adjust your wires a bit. However, what you have listed would work great - it just might be a little harder to work with than the higher guage wire.

connections
whats the best way to splice two wires together? right now i am using crimp barrels. also i am using terminal blocks to terminate all the switches in my switch boxes and then another set of terminal strips to terminate the end of all the LED heads. i then put the fork style crimp connector on the end of all the wires on the flasher and connect them to the correct places on the two terminal strips.

Barrel crimps (butt connectors) are pretty much standard for the industry, however, some shops chose to use the ones with shrink-wrap and adhesive on the ends for waterproofing. It all depends on how important and where the connection takes place due to the elements or lack thereof.

Terminal strips are fine if you have them covered when not being serviced. Don't want to drop a penny on one of those bad boys - that is, unless you LIKE sparks.

i think thats about it. i know its a lot of questions but if anyone wants something to talk about and explain to me or reference me to a book, website, pamphlet, ect that would be great.

lastly, just wondering if anybody has any contacts in mpls/ st paul, mn that do a good job on vehicle installs and wouldnt mind me tagging along and watching and learning. i just want to make sure i am not getting into any bad habbits as i am just begining to get into installs and maybe learn some good tips along the way too.

I know that the company I work for has a huge installation facility in Minneapolis, MN and they'd probably let you hang out while they work on your rig. It really all depends on the installer you get on that day.

thanks so much

-zach

Yeah, yeah, yeah...

[lunzac]

thanks for the info
from what you told me i just have a couple more specific questions about grounding points.....
i drive a 2000 f-150 extended cab and have the stereo stuff and lighting flashers/ power supplies underneath the back seat. where would be a good place to ground to there and which is more important, having seperate grounding places for each piece or having a shorter ground run?

also didnt get any idea from you on the type of wire to use for main power supply or from the flashers to the LED heads or if it matters... ive noticed vehicles use mainly wire with more smaller strands, the wire i am using has fewer strands that are larger.

i would love to come and watch you work on my rig, as you put it, the only problem is i dont have the cash to pay someone else to play with my rig, thats my im trying to do the install myself. is there any way i could come and watch you work on other peoples rigs though? if you want to email me that would be cool.

zachlundberg@mn.rr.com


thanks

-zach

[wx4cbh]

All the equipment you're mounting together, say under the back seat, should have one common ground point, and a bolt into a good clean heavier metal body or bracket part, not a sheet metal screw, is the ticket. I use seat frame bolts where they go into the floor or tunnel.

One thing about automobiles is that not all vehicle grounds are created equal. Check to make sure the ground straps from the frame to the body are actually there and in good shape. Many years of public safety/law enforcement comm installations has taught me that the factory assemblers will leave off or not properly tighten ground connections when they get in a hurry. Can't tell you how many Ford and GM products we found didn't even have ground straps, and these were the law enforcement/public safety versions of the vehicle! Sure, everything works, but the electrical noise was horrible in some cases because of intermittent connections as the vehicles is moving and the voltage drops due to poor connections.

One easy way to ensure that you have good grounds is to buy two battery ground cables with eyes on both ends, and install one from the battery NEG to a bolt on the engine block or head (not an exhaust header bolt!), and one from engine to a bolt on the firewall. This will ensure the cab has a solid ground. The seat bolts in the floor are a good ground, just make sure you use a wire lug of good grade and of the proper size. Dont go cutting or modifying a connector to fit over a bolt or screw.

On mobile installations, the more flexible the wire, the better, up to a point. MTW/THHN oil proof spec wire is multi-strand, but it's a bit stiff for good mobile use. Automotive wire of decent quality can be had from several sources like NAPA or Grainger, etc. Even Home Depot has some automotive wire grades.

Wire guage should be sufficient to carry the amp load without heating the interior of the truck. What guage to buy will be determined by the load and the distance from the voltage source. I use nothing less than 6# for primary wire to my distribution point, but you need to determine what size might be appropriate for your particular installation. For runs under 15 feet, my rule of thumb is 14# for 1-10 amps, and 11 amps to 20 amps is 12#, and 10 guage for 21 to 30 amps, and 8# for 30 to 40. You get the drift. It's a bit of overkill in some cases, but in 40+ years of doing this stuff, I've had no problems.

[lunzac]

should the ground from all of the LED heads come back and be grounded at the same point that the flasher is or should they be grounded seperatly closer to where to light head actually is mounted? also, on the sho me LED flashers, why do the flashers have a ground? basically they are just a switch, correct?

[DaBigBR]

In my opinion, the best way to splice two wires together is with a soldering iron and shrink tubing, but that probably doesn't fit most people's requirements and certainly takes a while to do.

[tvsjr]

In my opinion, the best way to splice two wires together is with a soldering iron and shrink tubing, but that probably doesn't fit most people's requirements and certainly takes a while to do.

Amen! Actually, if I do things in batches (so I have the equipment standing by and hot) it doesn't take much longer to solder/shrink the connections than it does to crimp them.

[thebigphish]

should the ground from all of the LED heads come back and be grounded at the same point that the flasher is or should they be grounded seperatly closer to where to light head actually is mounted? also, on the sho me LED flashers, why do the flashers have a ground? basically they are just a switch, correct?

you can just ground them all locally to the heads...you can run less wire, have less to worry about...

that is if you have a car w/ a good ground.

[lunzac]

hey guys
so i redid the electrical for my radios and lighting in my truck (picks and video to come soon) and now have 4 + wires comming from the battery all fused at the battery going to fused power distrobution blocks in for areas. 1. console (radios, flashlight chargers, ect) 2. all added lighting (through 2 switchboxes) 3. syntor 9000X 4. extra amp for car stereo.

i also changed the grounding so that instead of having a seperate ground run from the battery to each of these areas, i am sending the ground to the body of the vehicle the nearest place i can. for the car stereo i screwed breaker panel lugs into the floorboard, for the lighting, the heads are all grounded at the light head. The power supplies/ flashers all go to one common ground which goes to the floorboard. the syntor goes directly to the floorboard, and the console as a ground screw in it (to connect all the stuff in the console to) and then the console is screwed to the floorboard.

i have not tested using any of the radios yet, but at least with the stereo i am getting the classic huge amounts of noise/ being able to hear when the motor revs when the car is running or when the car is off but the key is turned so the accessories are on. i did not have this problem when i was running grounds directly back to the battery. any more help would be great.

i started to look and follow the 2 factory grounds that are comming from the battery, but thats tough. 1 goes directly to the body about 6" away from the battery and the other one goes who knows where. i did try disconnecting them one at a time and with either one connected the factory lights, radio, ect do turn on and with them both connected the hum is slitely less than with only one connected.


any thoughts would be great. mainly, is this something i sould try and tackle myself or bring it somewhere and have them make sure the grounding is all good. if i should bring it in, where should i bring it to?


-zach

[Birken Vogt]

I have no qualms about grounding to the floor pan of a vehicle (interior). I will use a stud that is welded in and wire brush the paint off. I will verify visually that an adequate ground strap is installed to the engine block and/or negative terminal of the battery. I will ohm it. And I will measure voltage drop after it is installed.

One thing to keep in mind is to ground all devices that interact with each other (radio and siren are one example) to the same physical point. Some fire apparatus manufacturers take this all the way to grounding every single ground on the vehicle to the same bolt. Makes for a long stack of ring terminals but it works.

Birken

[wa2zdy]

If you are hearing a popping noise, that's usually spark plug noise. I wouldn't expect to hear that in the car stereo, but it does happen.

What it sounds like is alternator whine. That really is a whine that varies with engine speed. That is typically caused by a bad ground at either the battery or the other end of the negative cable, or by a failing alternator. As diodes fail in an alternator, you'll hear more whine, which is AC, but the battery will still charge. Of course at some point soon the alternator will fail completely and no longer charge the battery.

The battery ground cable by the way goes to the engine block somewhere, likely near the starter.

Good luck.

[Max-trac]

Grounding Story; Funny!
My brother replaced his radiator, then at night noticed the headlights were bright when stopped, and dimmed as he started moving.
Discovered the OLD radiator was grounding the engine thru the tranny cooler lines, and he had put rubber lines in the NEW install.
The engine now had no ground when moving as the lubrication insulated things in the drive train, and would ground out when stopped and the metal parts "touched".
ALWAYS CHECK THE GROUND TO THE ALTERNATOR.

[lunzac]

thanks for the tips... just 2 questions about recent responses

1. if the alt is going bad and i metered the output would AC voltage show up?

2. how do i physically find the alt/ what does it look like to make sure it is grounded well?

3. what other pieces should i make sure are grounded?

[crazyboy]

[comm2]

yep, that would be a alternator