Can an 800 MHz P25 Astro be used as a monitor without auth?

[W0XS]

I'm told that if I bought an 800 MHz Astro to use as a monitor for police/fire frequencies on our local digital P25 system it would be as worthless as a brick since it can't work without being authorized.

I volunteer as a special deputy with our sheriff's communications response team and bought a Uniden BCD396T but am not happy with it. The Motorola Astros in our van have far better reception. I'd like to buy a used one and put it in my car but I'm told the county has to pay a user fee to the state for each authorized radio in the system. There's no way they are going to pay for all of the volunteers. Only the sergeants and above are issued digital handhelds (and some astros for their cars).

My question is -- wouldn't there be some way to modify the radio so it doesn't need to be authorized to just receive talk groups? I'm totally inexperienced with Motorola. If my Uniden can receive them I'd think an Astro could too with some modification. If it could be modified what would one have to do?

[Bruce1807]

Just clone one on night.
Then remember Mums the word.

[RESCUE161]

I realize that the audio is much better on the Motorola radios, but you're going to have a lot less headaches if you just stick with the Uniden.

I used to use Motorola radios to monitor trunked radios systems, but decided it was a lot cheaper to use scanners. Now I don't have to worry about breaking the law.

If a radio is programmed wrong, it could cause loads of trouble for the system.

[wavetar]

Two main issues are at play here.

Issue 1 - The radio cannot be programmed onto the system without a system key. Bypassing administration & putting it onto the system with an illegally obtained copy will give you the biggest troubles if you get caught.

Issue 2 - If it's a true P25 radio, such as an XTS5000, it cannot be programmed to passively monitor the talkgroups. The radio will force affiliation before it will unmute it's receiver. You cannot set it to "affiliate on PTT" like previous models. So, an invalid ID will not allow you to listen, and will also throw a red flag up to the admins. If you clone a valid ID into it, there can also be problems, especially if it's a multi-site SmartZone system. When your cloned radio affiliates to the system, it will "drop" the "authorised" radio from it's affiliation list on whatever site it happens to be on, possibly causing it to miss radio traffic. You wouldn't want to be responsible for a public safety radio missing it's audio, if you can help it.

Todd

[xmo]

"...I volunteer as a special deputy with our sheriff's communications response team ..."
_____________________________________________________________

Why not go through channels?

Explain what you want to the sheriff's office. They can request an ID and programming authorization for you from the system administrator.

If they are really concerned that your radio might transmit inappropriately, the ID can be configured in the Zone Controller to reject any talkgroup transmissions - yet you would still be able to monitor.

If the powers that be won't authorize you to provide your own radio - then you better stay with a scanner.

[Bruce1807]

Two main issues are at play here.

Issue 1 - The radio cannot be programmed onto the system without a system key. Bypassing administration & putting it onto the system with an illegally obtained copy will give you the biggest troubles if you get caught.

Issue 2 - If it's a true P25 radio, such as an XTS5000, it cannot be programmed to passively monitor the talkgroups. The radio will force affiliation before it will unmute it's receiver. You cannot set it to "affiliate on PTT" like previous models. So, an invalid ID will not allow you to listen, and will also throw a red flag up to the admins. If you clone a valid ID into it, there can also be problems, especially if it's a multi-site SmartZone system. When your cloned radio affiliates to the system, it will "drop" the "authorised" radio from it's affiliation list on whatever site it happens to be on, possibly causing it to miss radio traffic. You wouldn't want to be responsible for a public safety radio missing it's audio, if you can help it.

Todd

Whilst issue 1 is valid and up to the individual if he can pull it off issue 2 is a little grey. and shouldn't matter unless you have very little units on the road.
As long as one unit on the talkgroup is registed on each site it won't make a difference. In a big city I doubt there would be many times where at least one unit is not registed per site but then again maybe at 4.am.
Even then no unit should have used the site for 4 hours (default) or whatever the timer is set at. I have never seen my SZ not key up all sites on the police channels even at 4.am

[CTAMontrose]

here we go again.

please read this:
http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=59617

[W0XS]

Thanks for all of the comments. I got a quick education.

I wanted to go to Motorola because my Uniden audio breaks up no matter how I adjust the P25 level, it's difficult to listen to that way.

I volunteer with a large sheriff's department wtih three sizeable volunteer components and I can hear them say "if we do it (authorize) for you we will haev to do it for everyone".

It's like the large company I have worked for since 1993. I have the perfect job for telecommuting but they won't let me "because if we let you then we'd have to let eveyone do it".

I long for the simple days a few years ago when my ham VHF/UFH would get me all of the police/fire requencies with great audio.

My question was about receiving the p25 talk groups, not transmitting. I'm not going to jeopardize my ham license or radiotelephone license by doing something stupid like transmitting on a police frequency. I can do that legally from our communications van or from the portable handhelds we use for events. We have the ability to communicate with local, state, federal law enforcement, FEMA, Red Cross, National Guard, commercial and military aircraft and more. We work with the ESU (SWAT) team so our radios, even portables, have their encrypted channels. That's all great, I just wish I could have a Motorola quality scanner when I'm not working on a call-out.

Thanks to everyone who gave advice!

[MTS2000des]

Thanks for all of the comments. I got a quick education.

I wanted to go to Motorola because my Uniden audio breaks up no matter how I adjust the P25 level, it's difficult to listen to that way.

I volunteer with a large sheriff's department wtih three sizeable volunteer components and I can hear them say "if we do it (authorize) for you we will haev to do it for everyone".

It's like the large company I have worked for since 1993. I have the perfect job for telecommuting but they won't let me "because if we let you then we'd have to let eveyone do it".

I long for the simple days a few years ago when my ham VHF/UFH would get me all of the police/fire requencies with great audio.

My question was about receiving the p25 talk groups, not transmitting. I'm not going to jeopardize my ham license or radiotelephone license by doing something stupid like transmitting on a police frequency. I can do that legally from our communications van or from the portable handhelds we use for events. We have the ability to communicate with local, state, federal law enforcement, FEMA, Red Cross, National Guard, commercial and military aircraft and more. We work with the ESU (SWAT) team so our radios, even portables, have their encrypted channels. That's all great, I just wish I could have a Motorola quality scanner when I'm not working on a call-out.

Thanks to everyone who gave advice!

you jeaopordize more than your radio licenses, you risk losing your LEO carrier/certification, and can go to prison. It just happened last week in Michigan...and it's happened here in Georgia last year. All of the accused (and now convicted) were public safety officials doing unauthorized programming of trunking radios on system.

Like it or not, trunking systems ARE indeed COMPUTER SYSTEMS and the laws of your state apply. The system key is intellectual property. If you have a radio programmed "just to listen" and the radio has a system key in it for that system on which you have no authorization, you've most likely violated your states CC statutes. If you think that "just because I'm a cop...no one will care"...this isn't like running the occasional red light. It is serious...just ask the guys in Michigan who traded their public safety uniforms for prison stripes.

It's that serious. If you cannot get authorization and feel your safety is a LEO is at stake, contact your politicians, if they don't listen, the media, etc. if it's that mission critical to be on such system.

otherwise enjoy your 396. I've found using a better antenna makes all the difference. mine works just fine with a tuned 800 whip. RS sells them for like 14.95.

[1 Adam 12]

With one exception, the advice you have been given is sound....
But in order to improve your situation, are you using an outside or attached antenna of any kind with your scanner ??? Have you tried an antenna made for the band your on. Also for what you would spend on an Astro, buy a Uniden Mobile, and stick a commercial 800MHZ antenna on your vehicle. The same goes for home.... Combines with a good speaker, you should get decent performance.

I'd put money on it you could probably ask for help installing the antenna, on your vehicle.. hell most groups would give you the cable, antenna and even install it for you.

And for those that say " go gray" here's another reason not to. As pointed out in his post, they are paying for access on this system, so loading an unauthorized radio, duped from a legit one, is not only going to make you a hit with your own agency , but the controlling agency is really going to love you and cause grief that will be reflected back on those subscriber agencies.

[wavetar]

Todd

Whilst issue 1 is valid and up to the individual if he can pull it off issue 2 is a little grey. and shouldn't matter unless you have very little units on the road.
As long as one unit on the talkgroup is registed on each site it won't make a difference. In a big city I doubt there would be many times where at least one unit is not registed per site but then again maybe at 4.am.
Even then no unit should have used the site for 4 hours (default) or whatever the timer is set at. I have never seen my SZ not key up all sites on the police channels even at 4.am

You are correct if the sites are in close proximity, as they are in a city environment. But, in our case, the RCMP has radios located throughout the province of Nova Scotia, spread out over 68 sites. There's a very good possibility that a duplicate ID can kick a legitimate radio off the system in my proposed scenario, and it's actually happened on our system. It may be an unlikely example, but it's a very legit reason not to duplicate ID's on any system.

Not to mention, if it's an XTS5000/2500, it won't recieve audio regardless if the site is transmitting it or not, if it's not affiliated. It's a very real & likely issue in that case. If it's an older XTS3000 or analog MTS2000 type radio, it can still receive the audio when not affiliated.

Todd