System Upgrade Choices...Opinions?

[bandaidken]

I need some opinions, we are upgrading our FD radio portables and mobiles. Must be Motorola. We have 50K to spend.

All radios should be VHF. We use MDC id's, and only the officers need decode w/display. We have a good VHF repeater system with multiple receivers and a voter. Coverage is 95%.

Here is what we need:

25 Firefighter portables (RUGGED, 16ch min)
6 Officer Portables (Rugged, 48ch Min, MDC Decode w/display)
6 Mobile Radios (Do not have to be high end, can even be 45 watts)

I'm leaning towards the PR860's for the Firefighters
We use the HT1250's for the officers now, but now is the time to upgrade as money doesn't come every year! I'm leaning towards MT1500, but I understand that it will not decode MDC?

Mobiles, I originally had cdm1250's in the plan, but am looking for something cheaper (16 ch would be okay, more would be better).

Priority is the firefighter portables, they must be rugged, have good audio and perform. Next is officers ports and then mobiles.

Any money left over will be used for repeater/receiver upgrades (generators, etc).

Thanks

[Firebuff66]

We just did the same thing, Our motorola dealer let us use the following radios to test.
Portables:
HT750
HT1250
EX500
EX600
PR860
PR1500
MT1500
XTS1500
XTS2500
Mobiles:
CM300/PM400 (32CH/64CH)
CDM1250
PM1500
XTL2500

We used the portables for 6 weeks in every kind of situation and found the HT & EX are all the same the HT750/EX500 came out the best for holding up and being simple the HT1250/EX600 same for the display radio, the PR860 had a little better audio but that was the only diffrence. The PR/MT/XTS radios were nice and the MT1500 probly would have been our choice there but we are Narrow band and use DPL and ALL the PM/MT/XTS portables have a decode problem using NFM & DPL, so those are out as we dont want anyone killed on scene, and motorola has been"working on it" for months++. Mobiles we went with the CDM1250, they are simple and work GREAT, the PM1500 is high power but only 8 char display and the CDM's have way more features. the XTL is nice if you can mount it where you can see the display well, but the CDM works better and the CDM and HT's have better warrentys then the high end pro stuff.

We also looked at the CM300...That is a great little radio 32 ch 45watt very loud. $361 for us as we were going to get 25.
Went CDM because of the display, we wanted bigger
Our EMS truck has a XTL2500 & a CM300 The CM300 works much better...no big bells and multi color display but it does out preform the XTL in TX & RX

[wavetar]

I highly recommend the PR860 for the firefighter portables...better water resistance than the HT750/1250 series, 16 channels, Impres battery system, MDC capability...all for less than a 4-channel HT750. Better audio too.

If you don't need the bells & whistles of the CDM series and it has to be Motorola, the CM300 is an excellent alternative. We converted a local taxi fleet to CM series stuff nearly 2 years ago...not a single problem since...and these guys were notorious for complaining before that.

I'd go with either MT1500 or XTS1500 w/display for officer portables. I believe the "Model 1.5" units w/display will decode MDC...check with your local Moto sales rep on that. I'd lean towards the XTS, as I don't believe there's a big price difference, and the digital capability of the XTS could allow for some interop if another department near you decides to go digital (on the same freq band, of course) in the future. Otherwise, they're physically identical to each other. If it turns out they don't do the MDC decode, look into the cost of an analog "Astro Ready" XTS2500...they definitely do it. They could be flashed for digital in the future if needed. I think your only other option would be to stick with the HT1250/1550 stuff for the officers.

Todd

[RKG]

One thing to be aware of is that a lot of the grants that are coming down for radio stuff require that the money be spent only for "P-25 compatible" equipment. This not only limits your choices but it also reduces how many radios you can get for a given amount of money. I am not defending this quickly-becoming-common provision, only pointing it out. If you purchase something else now, you'll either be foreclosed from expanding your system in the future with grant money or be forced to have different types of equipment mixed in one system.

I do know that the XTS portables do MDC decode with alias. In theory, they will also do Sel Call and Call Alert with Mute, as well as QCII, but those features weren't implemented until the most recently released firmware and so I can't verify if or how well they work.

[SFD_Radio]

It's unfortunate that the only equipment durable enough for the fireground is the most expensive tier (XTL/XTS). It also kind of sucks that this is the only equipment that will be eligible for federal financial assistance. That having been said.

Note that the manufacturer discourages using less than "mission critical" grade equipment. Now, they can say that because they want to sell a more expensive radio. It does also happen that the more expensive line is more durable. If someone is killed, there may be a question about the equipment. If sub-standard equipment fails, the manufacturer can fall back upon advertising in their product manual that it should not have been used for something like the fireground in the first place.

After 9/11, a group of surviving family members sought to sue Motorola for several billion dollars. The case was dismissed on procedural grounds so we don't know how the facts would have shaken out. We do know this: Motorola, and other manufacturers, immediately began quantifying like never before the durability of their equipment and also adding disclaimers in the product literature. Why? To protect themselves against lawsuits. The best place to start is by distancing themselves from public safety agencies that use the wrong equipment for the wrong job.

An HT1250 may work inside of a fire building for years and never fail. In fact, I think it probably never would fail. However, if it does, and the question asked is "Was that equipment used in accordance withthe recommendations of the maufacturer?" the answer will be "No."

We generally don't use the tower ladder for bungee jumping. We probably could. But the best reasons not to are common sense and also that such an activity does not conform to the manufacturers recommendations. If they make it and say it shouldn't be used for that, then we are forced to consider that carefully.

Stick with equipment that is rated for fire duty. Look at what large fire department's in big cities and counties use. They use high-end equipment because lives are on the line and it has to work. They also don't want the liability of "cheaping-out."

Those of us in smaller departments are constantly looking toward the large agencies in our area for guidance about training, procedures, and trucks, but we somehow feel that the place to save some money is by procuring cheap communications equipment. (Don't worry, once upon a time, my department did that way).

There's a reason that private entities and governments that don't provide public safety services are generally not in a rush to do it. It costs a bloody fortune and is fraught with liability.

Stay away from the equipment that belongs in hotel security. Even though it will eat up more of your 50K budget, better you do it right across half your fleet than to half-ass the whole thing.

Good luck.

[wavetar]

An HT1250 may work inside of a fire building for years and never fail. In fact, I think it probably never would fail. However, if it does, and the question asked is "Was that equipment used in accordance withthe recommendations of the maufacturer?" the answer will be "No."

And yet the Motorola HT1250 brochure clearly shows a picture of a fireman using said model radio at a fire scene. Talk about mixed messages.

Todd

[SFD_Radio]

You're right about that! Since I'm already ranting...

Why does the CDM/HT series come with every analog option known to man but on the higher tier stuff you wind up paying as you go for each option? (I know it's $$$ but it felt good to ask).

[bandaidken]

I appreciate your opinions.

I have read the information on the PR860 and it's marketed as a radio that is rugged and designed for tough conditions. I'm leaning in that direction and perhaps we'll start to phase in a few of the XTS radios as well (depending on budget).

I cannot find anything stating that mission critical radios are the only radios that Mot recommends for Firefighting? If you have that, I'd appreciate seeing it. I thought "mission critical" was a marketing program, and a tie in to Mot promoting it's 5000 radio and the whole fireground system.

I have to be honest, that I understand your point about having the very best, but let's be honest, in the real world there are other considerations. In my opinion, it's better that every firefighter has a very good radio rather than every third firefighter having the very best radio.

Real world decisions are always a balancing act. I know that it would be best if every patient in a hospital had their own nurse, but in reality I know that one nurse may cover 15 patients. It's an acceptable practice.

As for lawsuits, in the end having this radio or that radio will not protect you from being sued. I think that what is important is that you can show that the equipment was maintained well, FF's were trained on the equipment, and that all other safeguards were practiced.

Thanks again.

[txshooter]

...I have to be honest, that I understand your point about having the very best, but let's be honest, in the real world there are other considerations. In my opinion, it's better that every firefighter has a very good radio rather than every third firefighter having the very best radio.

Real world decisions are always a balancing act. I know that it would be best if every patient in a hospital had their own nurse, but in reality I know that one nurse may cover 15 patients. It's an acceptable practice....

I am sure that the budget prevent s many agencys from purchasing what needs to be purchased. I think what other were suggesting was this...

Buy the best equipment you can right now with the funds you have available even if you can't supply each and every firefighter with a new piece of equipment. Use the radios you have currently to supplement the new radios. Yes, not everyone gets the newest, latest and greatest piece of equipment right now, but as the buget permits purchase another raido here and there to get everyone the same high level equipment in a 3-5 year plan.

Especially for the fire service you want to get some of the best equipment you can purchase. Motorola no longer makes its lower tier radios as durable as many would like to think.

Just my 2 cents.....

[escomm]

MT1500 1.5 will not decode MDC PTT IDs, it will only decode call alerts, selective calls, radio inhibits and radio checks. This is a very common misconception

[radio-link]

I appreciate your opinions.
I have to be honest, that I understand your point about having the very best, but let's be honest, in the real world there are other considerations.
Thanks again.

I just want to mention that here in Germany the HT1250 and similar radios (although known here with different names) are what is sold for police and firefighting after the Jedi radios have gone. The common meaning is, they are OK, but can not really replace the Jedis. Whenever those guys see and use one of my XTS5000 radios (which in fact are not sold at all in germany, and maybe there are not more then a dozen in hands different from US army) they are excited. Those radios are two degrees above all the HT stuff and one degree above the Jedis. I have been using two XTS5k during the last two years now, and they are by far the best radios I ever had. Sabers are great, Jedi are fine, Waris (HT) are OK, but XTS5k simply are top class.

[dittrimd]

Just wondering why they have to be Motorola? Our department used to be an all Moto department and when we received our grant for new portables and mobiles (before safecomm and P25 capability) we were able to purchse more radios from other manufacturers with more capabilities. If it is becasue of MDC there are option to get this capability from other manufacturers. It has been five years and the radios we purchased have had next to no problems. (Portable VX-900U; Mobiles Kenwood TK-890/690 Single head)

I know someone else mentioned this but it is important to remember that any grant money from the federal government for radios of any type must meet safecomm guidlines. This pretty much means they just have to be P25 capable. You do not have to implement P25 as a part of the grant. This is a common misconception and one I recently dealt with when I put in a grant for our repeater replacement project.

I personally have many Waris series radio in use at my facility. My maitenance guys use them daily and are pretty rough on them. HT1250, HT750, EX500, EX600. They are OK but do have their problems and are no where near as reliable as the MT2000's we used to use. I personally would not use them for public safety. The XTS radios are the only ones from Motorola I would use for public safety. (I know, $$$$) If you do decide to use Waris for this project make sure you get the Intrinsically safe option. It may be just a paperwork formality but when OSHA comes a knocking when an incident occurs they will want to see the paper trail. Can you tell I have had to deal with a incident.

Good luck with your new system!!

Mark