Does your site have a means to connect a tertiary power supply in case the case the site generator fails?
I'm looking at this issue right now as part of a grant application. One load I can address with a 100 Amp pin & sleeve connector, the rest look like I will need to use cam-locs due to the current involved.
I checked with the local generator companies. The closest 2 vendors keep a set of leviton 22 series cam-locs on their machines. The Navy, USCG, and USMC also use the 22 series connector.
I'm open to suggestions on this one as it's a bit beyond my normal scope of practice. BTW, I have requested the assistance of the site electrician as well.
TX site / PSAP question
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spareparts
- Batboard $upporter
- Posts: 502
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:33 pm
Generator Spigot
Do you own a mobile generator or are making arrangements with a rental fleet for urgent access? The concept of a particular connector or size of mating cam-locks works only if you have control over both the buildings and mobile generators coordinated with the same connectors. The series 22 cam-locks are rated 690A and appear large for your 100A application. There are smaller and less expensive versions you can buy. However, many rental generators you simply wire up to a Nema 3R electrical box you would place outside of the building for this purpose. You would need to install a Manual Transfer Switch inside at the utility mains at a location that can feed everything.... or only some of the critical loads... your choice.
RF Dude
RF Dude
Re: Generator Spigot
As RF Dude has mentioned, the best way to solve your
emergency power issue is to install a power transfer
switch. This can be either a manual one or an auto one.
If your going to have a generator installed at the site,
then the auto transfer switch is the way to go. If not,
then install a manual switch.
This transfer switch needs to go between the fused
disconnect switch and the load distribution power panel.
You will normally see the power meter on the side of a
building and then a fused disconnect switch. If your
site just has the power meter and then the breaker
panel, you will have to add a fused disconnect switch
to meet the electrical codes.
The common leg of the transfer switch will go to the
breaker panel for the building. The normal position
will go to the fused disconnect attached from the
power meter. The emergency position of the transfer
switch will go to the generator.
Here is where you might run into your interface issue.
If you have a pigtail cable you keep at the site for
connecting up to a rental generator, then you can put
a connector on it to match the load it will feed. There
are a number of companies that have these connectors.
Appleton and Hubble are two that come to mind.
Just make sure that the cable coming from the
generator has a female connector and the one you
attach to the side of the building has a male connector.
You should not be able to put your fingers on a hot
pin of these connectors. Be it coming from the building
or the generator. Remember that the male pins on
the side of the building are cold. They are coming from
the load and not the hot side of the transfer switch. In
the normal position of the transfer switch, these pins
are dead. If you throw the transfer switch to the
emergency position, you disconnect from the meter
feed and only have the load side of the building
connected to this male connector. There is no way
these male pins can be hot.
This type of connector is not cheap, but they meet the
electrical code and work very well. If you go look at a
cellular site, you will find these mounted on the side of
the building or equipment shelter. They are commonly
used for just this purpose. The number of pins will be
determined by what type of power the site has. On
a normal 120/240 volt single phase feed you will need
a 4 pin connector. When you have a 3 phase power
feed, you will need a 5 pin connector. The extra pin
is for the ground connection. This is used to bond
the generator frame to the building ground system.
Don't forget that the electrical codes says you need
to provide a ground rod for the generator.
Jim
emergency power issue is to install a power transfer
switch. This can be either a manual one or an auto one.
If your going to have a generator installed at the site,
then the auto transfer switch is the way to go. If not,
then install a manual switch.
This transfer switch needs to go between the fused
disconnect switch and the load distribution power panel.
You will normally see the power meter on the side of a
building and then a fused disconnect switch. If your
site just has the power meter and then the breaker
panel, you will have to add a fused disconnect switch
to meet the electrical codes.
The common leg of the transfer switch will go to the
breaker panel for the building. The normal position
will go to the fused disconnect attached from the
power meter. The emergency position of the transfer
switch will go to the generator.
Here is where you might run into your interface issue.
If you have a pigtail cable you keep at the site for
connecting up to a rental generator, then you can put
a connector on it to match the load it will feed. There
are a number of companies that have these connectors.
Appleton and Hubble are two that come to mind.
Just make sure that the cable coming from the
generator has a female connector and the one you
attach to the side of the building has a male connector.
You should not be able to put your fingers on a hot
pin of these connectors. Be it coming from the building
or the generator. Remember that the male pins on
the side of the building are cold. They are coming from
the load and not the hot side of the transfer switch. In
the normal position of the transfer switch, these pins
are dead. If you throw the transfer switch to the
emergency position, you disconnect from the meter
feed and only have the load side of the building
connected to this male connector. There is no way
these male pins can be hot.
This type of connector is not cheap, but they meet the
electrical code and work very well. If you go look at a
cellular site, you will find these mounted on the side of
the building or equipment shelter. They are commonly
used for just this purpose. The number of pins will be
determined by what type of power the site has. On
a normal 120/240 volt single phase feed you will need
a 4 pin connector. When you have a 3 phase power
feed, you will need a 5 pin connector. The extra pin
is for the ground connection. This is used to bond
the generator frame to the building ground system.
Don't forget that the electrical codes says you need
to provide a ground rod for the generator.
Jim
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spareparts
- Batboard $upporter
- Posts: 502
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:33 pm
Thanks guys for the detailed notes. Just to add a few details:
The 100 amp load is the PBX, the radio repeaters, PA system, and on-site paging system. It's 120/208 volt, single phase. The plan is to install a UL1008 listed manual transfer switch, in the feed to the PBX room UPS system. The PBX room is already fed from the Life Safety power system.
We have a parking space for the genset that is far enough from the building to avoid pulling CO & exhaust into the building. The inlet connector is specified as a Hubbell 4100B12W connector. The generator interface are lugs.
Its the higher current interface for the rest of the plant that's giving us fits. The generator rental places closest to us uses the cam-loc & so the the federal sector (from what I can tell).
The generator Shop in town can supply a unit in less the 60 minutes, under the proposed contract, it's shaving additional minutes in getting the unit on-line that we are working on.
The 100 amp load is the PBX, the radio repeaters, PA system, and on-site paging system. It's 120/208 volt, single phase. The plan is to install a UL1008 listed manual transfer switch, in the feed to the PBX room UPS system. The PBX room is already fed from the Life Safety power system.
We have a parking space for the genset that is far enough from the building to avoid pulling CO & exhaust into the building. The inlet connector is specified as a Hubbell 4100B12W connector. The generator interface are lugs.
Its the higher current interface for the rest of the plant that's giving us fits. The generator rental places closest to us uses the cam-loc & so the the federal sector (from what I can tell).
The generator Shop in town can supply a unit in less the 60 minutes, under the proposed contract, it's shaving additional minutes in getting the unit on-line that we are working on.
I think perhaps this is what he is after. . . .
Has a tower site.
Tower site already has a backup generator.
Wants additional level of redundancy to be able to hookup another generator should primary site generator fail.
If that is the case, I have two tower sites setup in that manner (why would someone go thru that level of redundancy you may ask?-- when a generator fails, I can have a replacement there thru county 911 within 1 hour//tower in question has equipment for the 911 public safety system. Service tech who may or may not have parts to fix the generator can be there within 3 and his backup generator to hardwire in place of the failed one within 3-6 hours)
A caution: If you don't own the tower and are renting- you need to work with the tower owner on this one as they may have a "connection" in the building for such purposes. Also, connector twist-lock and cabling or otherwise needs to be rated for the max current the generator is able to supply. (That way a failure of wiring will trip the breaker and not ignite ie using 12 Gauge wire since we are only going to pull 20 amps hooked to a 100 amp breaker on the generator)
Any connection should be with an agreed upon connector for both you and the tower owner (again if you are tower owner then one less party to agree with) Here tower owner rigged his portable units with the twist lock to be able to connect any of his generators to the tower sites rather than have to mess in the panels
Supplemental: Always have a pigtail connector available (ie twist lock or otherwise to mate with whatever connection you are supplying on the building and approximately enough wire to provide an alternate means of hookups. That way another generator can be used with a little bit of wiring quickly)
Also, make sure a manual transfer switch is available to isolate the original building generator & building mains from the "redundant generator"
As always your mileage may vary, and definately consult an electrician as this is something to make sure you have setup correctly.
Tony
Has a tower site.
Tower site already has a backup generator.
Wants additional level of redundancy to be able to hookup another generator should primary site generator fail.
If that is the case, I have two tower sites setup in that manner (why would someone go thru that level of redundancy you may ask?-- when a generator fails, I can have a replacement there thru county 911 within 1 hour//tower in question has equipment for the 911 public safety system. Service tech who may or may not have parts to fix the generator can be there within 3 and his backup generator to hardwire in place of the failed one within 3-6 hours)
A caution: If you don't own the tower and are renting- you need to work with the tower owner on this one as they may have a "connection" in the building for such purposes. Also, connector twist-lock and cabling or otherwise needs to be rated for the max current the generator is able to supply. (That way a failure of wiring will trip the breaker and not ignite ie using 12 Gauge wire since we are only going to pull 20 amps hooked to a 100 amp breaker on the generator)
Any connection should be with an agreed upon connector for both you and the tower owner (again if you are tower owner then one less party to agree with) Here tower owner rigged his portable units with the twist lock to be able to connect any of his generators to the tower sites rather than have to mess in the panels
Supplemental: Always have a pigtail connector available (ie twist lock or otherwise to mate with whatever connection you are supplying on the building and approximately enough wire to provide an alternate means of hookups. That way another generator can be used with a little bit of wiring quickly)
Also, make sure a manual transfer switch is available to isolate the original building generator & building mains from the "redundant generator"
As always your mileage may vary, and definately consult an electrician as this is something to make sure you have setup correctly.
Tony
can you post a little sketch of what you are trying to achieve?
We use various means to power our EOC.
In the last hurricane our generator failed and I remember wading through water hooking up Fire Truck generators to run critical services.
This was a continguency plan that I convinced the fire service to put in place. I dont know how many times Ive been thanked on it as the same year it was needed and put to the test.
We use various means to power our EOC.
In the last hurricane our generator failed and I remember wading through water hooking up Fire Truck generators to run critical services.
This was a continguency plan that I convinced the fire service to put in place. I dont know how many times Ive been thanked on it as the same year it was needed and put to the test.
I think Bruce has asked the question. You need to provide a
simple block diagram of what the issue is.
In simple terms, you will need to install a manual transfer
switch in the normal power load run. This will solve your
power feed issue.
You seem to be hung up on the wire connection issue for
the gennerators. If you place a connector on the outside
of the building and keep a cable there that you can use
to run to the generator, what is your issue? All generators
have a terminal interface where you connect the cables
to feed the load. Connect into this and move on.
Unless you obtain your own dedicated generator to use
as a standby, your not ever going to have any other
choice but to connect up to the regular generator
output terminal lugs on the generator. It will take
about 10 or 15 minutes to make this connection.
Jim
simple block diagram of what the issue is.
In simple terms, you will need to install a manual transfer
switch in the normal power load run. This will solve your
power feed issue.
You seem to be hung up on the wire connection issue for
the gennerators. If you place a connector on the outside
of the building and keep a cable there that you can use
to run to the generator, what is your issue? All generators
have a terminal interface where you connect the cables
to feed the load. Connect into this and move on.
Unless you obtain your own dedicated generator to use
as a standby, your not ever going to have any other
choice but to connect up to the regular generator
output terminal lugs on the generator. It will take
about 10 or 15 minutes to make this connection.
Jim
Bruce1807 wrote:can you post a little sketch of what you are trying to achieve?
We use various means to power our EOC.
In the last hurricane our generator failed and I remember wading through water hooking up Fire Truck generators to run critical services.
This was a continguency plan that I convinced the fire service to put in place. I dont know how many times Ive been thanked on it as the same year it was needed and put to the test.
-
psapengineer
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:00 am
Yes, We've done exactly that.........
Yes,
We've done exactly that.
Our main power comes in on a 3Ph 600A 120/208 Main to the Onan ATS.
The output of the ATS goes to the Non Critical Load Distribution Panel and to a 400A Manual Transfer Switch.
Non Cricial Load are things like Ice Melt, Hot Water, HVAC oustide of the dispatch and equipment room.
The 400A MTS is fed from the main ATS on one throw and an outside droop snoot Generator Inlet with 150A capacity. We keep the mating cord end connector inside the building and enough THHN colored wire to make any connection we have to. SOJ cord would be too bulky to store. We can also open 3ph3Pole breakers as needed if we have to power the facility on a 120/240 gen set.
All of our critical loads are 1Ph or 208-240 1Ph excpet for the primary 360VDC 24KW UPS charger which is 3Ph. The secondary UPS is run from the 48V plant and powers all critical network and server elements which have dual AC inlets from both UPSs. The 48V chargers are wide mouth and take 208 or 240 on a 2 Pole breaker. The main UPS has a make before break (lockout if energized inverter) MBS to allow all of the 1ph loads to be moved to the MTS.
This arrangement also allows us to "Patch" around the Main ATS if we need to work on it.
The MTS is padlocked in the ATS postion; service by qualified folks only.
Good Luck, Bob
We've done exactly that.
Our main power comes in on a 3Ph 600A 120/208 Main to the Onan ATS.
The output of the ATS goes to the Non Critical Load Distribution Panel and to a 400A Manual Transfer Switch.
Non Cricial Load are things like Ice Melt, Hot Water, HVAC oustide of the dispatch and equipment room.
The 400A MTS is fed from the main ATS on one throw and an outside droop snoot Generator Inlet with 150A capacity. We keep the mating cord end connector inside the building and enough THHN colored wire to make any connection we have to. SOJ cord would be too bulky to store. We can also open 3ph3Pole breakers as needed if we have to power the facility on a 120/240 gen set.
All of our critical loads are 1Ph or 208-240 1Ph excpet for the primary 360VDC 24KW UPS charger which is 3Ph. The secondary UPS is run from the 48V plant and powers all critical network and server elements which have dual AC inlets from both UPSs. The 48V chargers are wide mouth and take 208 or 240 on a 2 Pole breaker. The main UPS has a make before break (lockout if energized inverter) MBS to allow all of the 1ph loads to be moved to the MTS.
This arrangement also allows us to "Patch" around the Main ATS if we need to work on it.
The MTS is padlocked in the ATS postion; service by qualified folks only.
Good Luck, Bob