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From todays NY Daily News
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FDNY radios
not good to go
By ALICE McQUILLAN
DAILY NEWS POLICE BUREAU
Wednesday, September 18th, 2002

Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta told the City Council yesterday that the department is still trying to work out the bugs in its new radios - a concession that angered relatives of Sept. 11 victims.
"My son did not know that the Fire Department had substandard equipment, that it had radios that did not work and it did not have a plan to handle emergencies," said Sally Regenhard, chairwoman of the Skyscraper Safety Campaign.

Her 28-year-old son, Christian, was among the 343 firefighters who died that morning.

On Sept. 11, they were carrying the same hand-held radios that had failed in the 1993 WTC bombing. Newer radios had been shelved in March 2001 because of transmission problems.

Scoppetta said if the newer radios pass the FDNY's tests, which will be finished by early November, they'll be issued to firefighters.

If they fail, it will take two more years to order replacements, he said.

Mulling joint plan

Scoppetta added that he didn't know if an effort to join the Police Department's more advanced communications system is technologically feasible.

He cautioned that for radios to work in high-rises, they need repeaters - amplifiers that boost signals. Most skyscrapers lack them or don't have systems compatible with the FDNY's.

The Police Department has a network of repeaters, but Scoppetta said merging into it is more complicated than "just plugging into their system."

Monica Gabrielle, whose husband Rich died on Sept. 11, said that the 1993 WTC bombing should have led fire and city officials to plan ahead.

"Everything that was wrong in '93 was wrong in 2001," she said. "There were no lessons learned; there were no changes implemented."

the solution to this problem is to "piggyback" on to the nypd's sites. the police department has hundreds of radio sites throughout the city. most are in secure locations. the fire department is correct in saying in can simply not "plug into" the pd's system, but they can use their sites. the police department also has a large microwave system that i am sure is not up to full capcity. and it all goes to metrotech. and guess who has headquaters in metrotech. the fire department placed into service the xts 3000's. yes they were in digital, they were uhf as compared to the vhf currently used. they worked too good at first. when the radio's are redeployed they need to be used with a new infastructure. the fd has no uhf infastructure. it needs to build one.
the world trade center disaster was a unique problem. speaking as a police officer who was working that day i can tell you 1. yes the police radio system worked that day. 2. the radio especially citywide were jammed packed with transmissions. 3.on both the fd & pd there is a lack of understanding of radio principles.
one of the biggest problems that the police department has is lack of radio discipline. everyone wants to talk at once. for all of the engine company's and ladder company's going into that building there was not enough channels. the fire department has to start to think outside of the box. they have a whole slew of new radio channles that they need to use. they have to start dividing there different radio channels into different operations.
whats the solution. training and a proper system. is trunking the answer. i do not think so. interoperability is there allready. when the new radios go back in service they will be able to utilize the pd's interoperabilty radio channels.
right now i am just rambling but the fundamental problem is that yes the fdny failed to keep up with technology through the years.
before the xts 3000's the only new radios that were purchased were vhf sabers.
now the police department is no better. we still use sabers, but the police department upgraded there infastructure. they got more bandwith, in the form of the 480 channels and made changes. the modernized and built a new 911/dispatch center.
the sabers work i have seen a few of the vertex radio's in use. they are mostly carried by specailized units like warrants. from what i was told they are experimenting with xts 3000's for the chiefs right now. the police department has no plans to go digital. the salesman from motorola told me that just to get them to go to DES on certain channels was like pulling teeth.
basic problem money. every agency fights for money. if the fdny,nypd,sanitation,mayors OEM all pooled our resources and bandwith we really would not be here discussing communications problems

As the one year point of that horrible day has passed, I think even more questions have arisen regarding the communication system. Also having been down there that awful morning, one question that I still can't figure out is why the IO channel wasn't used. The restructuring of all of the patrol Sabers had been complete for well over a year and a half prior, if not more, to Sept. 11, 2001. You would think in that time at least some FD bosses would have the capability to use that channel, given that EMS is also UHF.

In it's aftermath, the bosses are now carrying Nextels. Thankfully we aren't in the 800 range that has been so problematic for NYCTA and the various City agencies on the trunked radio system. Given their need and the desire for communications on that level, wouldn't the TETRA system almost make sense? I realize many of the TETRA doubters say that without infrastructure, communication is just about non-existant with a one watt device, but /\/\ says that DMO (direct mode operation) is infrastructure independent, unlike iDEN. I would also think that greater interoperability would be gained among all the radio users.

the main reason the inter ops channels are not used is, no one knows that they are there. also they are channel 10 in all patrol radios. and they are boro specific. only citywide radios have the cw inter ops channels.
i think that the fd could use the new xts 3000's right now as long as they are analog mode. if everyone on the fireground has them. if a message needs to be sent to the dispatcher the mpo can do it or the chiefs aid.
they have enough band with to split the boro's in to 2 or 3 channels for each boro instead of having the whole city on 1 channel. we do it as police officers.
they could have the bronx use 2 or 3 channels one for the north one for the south. if a company from the north has to go to the south they can be told by the dispatcher to change handi talkie channels to the appropriate channel.
all it will take is a little planning and training. that was the problem they had when the xts 1st went into service they had the whole city on channel and using better radios with more power output. of course companies from queens are gonna hear manhattan companies.
as for the digital problem, simple solution take them out of digital and use them in analog only which i believe is being done now.

the equipment that they presently have can be used now and used efficiently but they must build on what they have and build a system that will work for the future.
learn from there mistakes and build on that.

When I moved out of Manhattan 25 years 154.25 mHz (Manhattan FDNY dispatch) ran at a good clip day and night; Sundays were somewhat quiet by comparison.

Today when I get into the area I am amazed at the traffic on the dispatch channel; it never stops. It just goes, and goes, and goes on and on and on, all day. The channel is seldom quiet for more than a minute or so.

With the current availability of decent CAD systems these days, it's difficult to accept the fact that entire boroughs are still running on a single dispatch channel; matter of fact it's mind-boggling. At the very least the FDNY could use a Manhattan North/South setup as the NYPD used to have.

The brain of a fire dispatcher who sits even for only an hour at a time can handle only so much stress before it burns out prematurely.

But, as the McKinsey report and many supporting stories show, there is tremendous resistance to change in the FDNY, and the analog vs. digital radio controversy is only one of many areas which could be greatly improved if only there was a willingness to make training the number one priority after the more basic firefighting priorities are in place.

Tom, W2NJS
...in D.C.

the fire department has a whole new batch of available spectrum. the problem is money. the vhf system that they use for fireground use is basiclly the same as the dispatch 153.83 for the whole city.
if they budgeted the money to build the money to build a new voice and data system it would be no problem.
the fdny has failed to keep up on even the basic upgrades to its radio system over the years. yes they have cad and mobile data. but the equipment was 5 years behind when they started to implement it.
one problem that i realize as a city worker is the fact that the city of new york is lke the federal government.
nothing is easy when it comes to improvement. it takes years for changes to be made of take effect, unless it is something news worthy or reactionary.
2 of the biggest reactionary agencies in the city NYPD and the FDNY. and usually it is for the wrong reasons that these agencies make changes.
do i thinkanychanges are gonna take place from the trgedy that was 9/11 yes i do. but they are gonna takes years to implement.
point: after 9/11 supposedly the NYPD went out and bought 25,000 "masks" for the department. there was talk that when u carry yur helmet(which is supposed be done everytime your on patrol) that you were gonna take your mask also.
end result: nothing. the mask's are sitting around somewhere.

one basic thing that the NYPD and FDNY do not practice is the incident command system.
it does not really exist in ny. they claim to use it but it is not used. police officers at the scene of a major incident only know that the sgt is in charge. there is no clue of who is running the show. the police department has no desire to cooperate with other agencies. that is the brass of the NYPD does not. as far as they are concerned the PD is in there own little world.
sept 11 showed that perfectly.


p.s. no i am not an angry disgrunteled member of the service.

lol

Come on guys, I know there's more of ya out there who have opinions on how the new radio sysytem for teh FDNY should be set up....

Possibly, or rather definately the FDNY shoud NOT operate Digital unless there is a citywide system in place with as many rx sites as teh PD has for it....

Come on, there are a bunch on inter/op freqs assigned to the city, who implemented this change? WHO authorized the channels to be put into the radios citywide. which radios have it? Whose don't?

In my opinion, EVERY radio in the city should have ALL the citywides and ALL the inter op channels.... WHat good are these radios if they can't use them anywhere on ANY channel???

FDNY should really move to UHF exclusively....... Maybe keep VHF in place as a b/u system, and as said in an above post, these hops should have more channels in the banks and adding the required receiver sites would also not be an issue...... Money-wise maybe though.....

Think about it, if you're familliar with the actual locations of the NYPD's satellite receiver sites throughout NYC, which I am a little familliar, then you know that with the correct strategic placement of the FDNY's quantar rx units, then building penetration would not be a problem....

Sheesh, I can hear St. Vincent's orderlies all the way in Nassau COunty and they're on 25 watts with a crappy antenna. High yes, but height is not an issue in NYC....


If there would have been a receiver site within a block of WTC, even better, if there would have been a site that s/c's and votes within a block, then there would have not been any missed calls.....

I can go on and on with this, but I'm bitter.. I'd love to meet the austro_NOTT, who is the liason from NYC-FDNY to motorola and ask questions for myself......

Listen morons,,,,,,I would say,,,,,if no one else is going to use the I/Ochannels, then we are, since WE "fdny" can't talk the way we are now.......

Any opinions.....I'd love ( surely others will also) what you think would be a good remedy to the current FDNY issue.......

PS Does anyone here have any direct interaction with the decision makers? Anyone know who sets the actual policies with the FDNY radios?
Who decides who uses which channel, etc???

I'd love to know. I would send that person an email myself....

Rather than going with a vertex, of which I have NO knowledge of the radio or it's features, NYPD should have been on the same boat with EMS and got the astros as well. One option is to Trunk the entire city with otark and if an incident occurs you (the OEM or whomever) can assign certain radios to certain channels as protocol dictates.... Otherwise, dont trunk anything, jsut having the astros is good since you will have ALL channels available to you when and if, or rather WHEN you need them,,,,,,,,,,
Just another idea I had......

I know how government works but for crying out loud! NYC should form a communications division. This division creates a city-wide trunked radio system, VHF UHF or whatever, with multiple receive sites around the city; possibly even a smartzone system with many sites around the city. NYPD and FDNY plus public works or whoever else RENTS airtime from this department. Everyone has the same level of service throughout the city, each boro has several talkgroups for dispatch, primary ops, secondary ops, primary scene, secondary scene, all call PLUS interagency channels.

It's a political way of sharing the costs. I find it hard that no one has ever thought of pooling the comms budgets of both departments and getting a decent system between the two.

There may be other cities to look at but a decent place to start is Columbus OH; Police, Fire, Sheriff, Suburban Police & Township Fire plus critical city services all share the same analog 800 trunking system and have common channels for special events/celebrations and emergencies. From the outside it doesn't look bad.

The important thing is to do something before there's another chance for a major catastrophe.

How many total users are on the different Public Safety Systems in the New York City Area?
From what I am seeing in the Minneapolis/St Paul where a metrowide APCO 25 system is going on the air at this time, getting everyone on the same page(system) can make these things happen. THe system here has State patrol, State Department of Transportation, Metro Bus system, Currently 3 counties( and most Police, fire and public works in those counties) and from what I am hear 4 more counties on the way, The City of Minneapolis will soon move police and fire, and the city of St Paul now is looking at coming on. Here a Radio Board was created with members from each agency on the board.
If all the potential users got togeather and joined to create one system they would 1. have inter ops, 2. get a better system for the money, 3. possibly save money by not duplicating systems.

Stmills wrote:How many total users are on the different Public Safety Systems in the New York City Area?
From what I am seeing in the Minneapolis/St Paul where a metrowide APCO 25 system is going on the air at this time, getting everyone on the same page(system) can make these things happen. THe system here has State patrol, State Department of Transportation, Metro Bus system, Currently 3 counties( and most Police, fire and public works in those counties) and from what I am hear 4 more counties on the way, The City of Minneapolis will soon move police and fire, and the city of St Paul now is looking at coming on. Here a Radio Board was created with members from each agency on the board.
If all the potential users got togeather and joined to create one system they would 1. have inter ops, 2. get a better system for the money, 3. possibly save money by not duplicating systems.

I couldn't agree more.

That is the whole point of trunking systems, I believe. Cover multiple agencies, multiple areas, and provide everyone with flawless, quality coverage. Not to mention the ease of inter-operability, if so desired.

The bigger the entire system is as a whole, the cheaper the cost is per each agency. Anyone that has bought something at a store such as "Sam's Club" or "Cost-Co" knows what I am talking about.

I must say, I'm not a trunking expert at all. I'm not a consultant. I'm not going to pretend to be. I'm just giving my opnion on trunking, and my perceved economics of it.

As I read this column and see all the different opinions and views, it occurs to me several things;

One, there is definately a problem with radio communications education. 9/11 was a horriffic day in the history of FDNY, NYPD, and the port authority as well as the rest of the world. As public servants, we train on a sometimes regular and sometimes not so regular basis for things like high rise fires, hostage situation, etc.,. But we fail to fall back to the basics; when I went through the police academy they spent 4 hours out of nine weeks on radio communications. Now as a communications tech/engineer I've found that after numerous years with changing radios, systems, and technology that I am almost always behind times with the in's and out's of the equipment. Even though it is my day to day jobe to know these things. Lessons? Don't forget the basics. Departments world wide would benifit greatly from having an outsider examine their communications systems, needs, and future plans. Too often when a dealer is approached they tend to go for the dollar (not all are like this, but after all; it is the dealers job to make money). Write SOG's pertaining to the worst case scenario and the practice it. It's no different than incident command. TRAIN YOUR PEOPLE!!!!

Second, department heads need to forget about their "SANDBOXES" For those of you that have no idea what I'm talking about, a "sandbox" is what I refer to as the domain that a department head lives in. It's imaginary but elementary in that these adults act like children playing in thier sandbox. For example; I am the Fire Chief of Anytown, USA and I own a radio system that my fire dept operates on. Everything works fine. Now, the Police Dept. (PD) owns it's own system as well. Now the kicker is that we have two different ideas of communication and write our own policies as such. FD's just don't talk to PD's; they're above each other. So, you want to fix the problem? Hold your department heads accountable and force them to work together! Especially on the level of communication!!! This is the day and time when pride had no place in public safety. WE need to realize that WE exist to serve the same common goals as our counter parts. WE need to remember that our number one priority is, "LIFE PRESERVATION" and that has to begin with the people in the ranks under us.

Well, I'll get off my soapbox for now.

the NYPD refuses to go to a smart zone trunking system. motorola tried convincing them 4 years ago that it would be more efficient use of the spectrum. what did the pd do with there new spectrum? they created the inter-op's channels and made more radio divisions( radio divisions are typically 1-2 pct per channel) and they created the boro channel's. the police department is reluctant to share their spectrum or team up for 2 reasons 1. as i said before MONEY 2. security there are over 300 receiver sites throughout the city and about 100 transmitter sites. most are unknown to the average person, and they want to keep it that way. the only people who work on the radio's and radio system are employed by the police department. there is no outside contractor, except for motorola.

yes i think the FDNY should use the NYPD radio sites. it would give them unprecedent coverage compared to what they have right now. but at almost every receiver site for the police department are secure receivers for certain frequencies. and the NYPD takes its secure voice system security seriously. the secure voter room looks like a bank vault.

there is a city department in charge of spectrum its called D.O.I.T.T. they are responsible for all spectrum except the FDNY and the NYPD. doitt runs the 800 mhz trunking system. what most people dont know is there is a custom built patch for the 800mhz system that connects to nextel. certain high ranking officials of every city agency can make use of this. it was set in place before 9/11.

the real root of the problem is that the FDNY does not like to use outside consultant's to fix there radio problems. they pay people to do this in house. my guess is they can not handle this large issue so now it will be doled out to an outside contractor. they have the spectrum. they just need a plan and the money.