Batboard

I'm looking for a portable meter that would allow me to determine the frequency of a pilot tone generator as well as it's strength. Thanks!

David

I have an HP TMS set, but I have found my silly $120 Radio Shack deluxe voltmeter has a very reliable audio freq counter, and the AC scale can display in db. What it doesn't do is terminate a line, measure circuit noise, or generate a tone with adjustable output. But, if all you want is to measure, RS may be your pal.

I tried a BK meter that I have here and it did ok... I think I'm looking for something more designed exactly for what I am trying to do. I was able to get my BK meter to display the frequency off of a radio console, but it wouldn't display the tones from the tone remote functions. What is the HP TMS set?

Thanks.

David

HP TMS is a Transmission Measurement Set; aka Transmission Impairment Measurement Set or TIMS. Special analog telco line tester; generate & measure tones on a line, measure loss in a circuit, or noise, or some other functions depending on the price you pay.

Otherwise, you could capture the tone on scope and check it that way.

You said 'measure a pilot tone'; are you meaning the voting/idle tone of a satellite receiver? A TIMS is probably what you need.


There used to be a little job called a Helper Lineman, which was a very basic tester; it could generate several tone frequencies, measure them, (look at http://www.scribd.com/doc/48975149/LM10 ... man-manual for a picture of its manual) Sometimes they show up on *bay; but go pretty quick.

There are several other units, past & present:
Convex 806; several models. (www.convexcorp.com)
Ameritec: the AM44 & AM48, and the AM5-XT(www.ameritec.com)
Amrel or American Reliance 186-T; I have one of these, great piece, but I can' t find anything about the company on the web today;
HP made several different models, so did other telephone test equipment manufacturers; I just don't know anything about them.

I don't see why a Fluke wouldn't do the job. It can measure the frequency of the tone as well as the level. Very handy in pointing the finger at the telco and having them send a tech out and find jumpers missing because some other tech needed the jumper to finish another repair and figured the customer wouldn't miss their jumper

True. a Fluke meter will do the job, but sometimes if you tell a telco tech (at least one that's been around a few years, and is not just a green button-pusher) that you've used a TIMS, and a particular model, it might enhance your credibility;

Also, a Fluke DMM doesn't have a way to 'bridge' or 'terminate' a line; sometimes that's just what is needed to isolate a problem.

pluto1914 wrote:I tried a BK meter that I have here and it did ok... I think I'm looking for something more designed exactly for what I am trying to do. I was able to get my BK meter to display the frequency off of a radio console, but it wouldn't display the tones from the tone remote functions. What is the HP TMS set?

Thanks.

David

Most meters, including a tms, are not fast enough to decode the command tone sequence. If a sustained tone is present, such as the 2175 llgt, or a status tone, then they will show you the freq and level. If you suspect a problem with the key up command, you either verify by substitution with a good tone remote, or look at the tones with a scope as a lissajous display inserting the desired tone into the horizontal input, and the line being measured into the vertical.

For example, inject accurate 1950 in the horiz, and look at the command tone on the line with the vert. If you see a stable circle, then it is on freq. If it rolls, it is not 1950, and you will have to adjust the tone gen until you get an unmoving circle to determine the freq. Depending on your scope, you may be able to set max hold to show the level of the tone. In general, you are allowed to be +/- 5hz with tone accuracy and still decode properly.

If it is a level problem, then you can look at the line out settings of the control point compared to the line in on the base. If you see something greater than 20db loss, you should get the telco to look at it. If it is a two wire line, they may have too much insertion loss installed to prevent self oscillation. If you see greater than 30db loss, it could be a bad crossconnect, or a wet line. If you have hum, then one side is closer to ground. These are all common problems that they can resolve fairly quickly once they understand what you need.

A less common problem is frequency translation. That is, you insert 2175, and get 2170 or 2180 at the other end. That is a CO problem. It is pretty rare these days with digital muxes. But, it used to happen a lot with baseband comms in analog channel banks.

kb4mdz wrote:True. a Fluke meter will do the job, but sometimes if you tell a telco tech (at least one that's been around a few years, and is not just a green button-pusher) that you've used a TIMS, and a particular model, it might enhance your credibility;

Also, a Fluke DMM doesn't have a way to 'bridge' or 'terminate' a line; sometimes that's just what is needed to isolate a problem.

Telco testers are about as useless as a three dollar bill. They run a test on the circuit... Oh everything is fine... OK where is my 1950Hz status tone? Sorry we don't see anything there. Head down to the head end, there's my status tone at -5dB! Head to the circuit termination where the voter is... no status tone and no signal! Problem resolution? Oh we found a jumper missing... Oh the aerial was bad... puh-leeze

I don't disagree that a TIMS is a good unit to test with but I've found the vast majority of leased circuit problems to be solely the fault of the telco and easily diagnosed with a multimeter.

That it takes Verizon and AT&T 48-72 hours to restore a public safety circuit (fire, police, makes no difference) says a great deal about the current state of affairs within the telco industry, alas a subject for another thread...

Oh, stop insulting three dollar bills;

Yeah, if I had a dollar for every time a telco tester has lied/obstructed/misled/cause hate & discontent/etc, ... I'd be a rich man.

I once had a public-safety circuit that it took 3 weeks to clear; the end was getting to meet not one, not two, but three crusty old testers at a terminus, after hours, because I had finally made a stink, and they FINALLY found a short in the pedestal at the corner of the property. All the other reports were 'adjusted level to spec.', 'replaced circuit card', etc. Really, now.

One point in their defense - they're rated for their job in how many tickets they can close, not how many problems they can solve.

escomm wrote:Telco testers are about as useless as a three dollar bill. They run a test on the circuit... Oh everything is fine... OK where is my 1950Hz status tone? Sorry we don't see anything there. Head down to the head end, there's my status tone at -5dB! Head to the circuit termination where the voter is... no status tone and no signal! Problem resolution? Oh we found a jumper missing... Oh the aerial was bad... puh-leeze

I don't disagree that a TIMS is a good unit to test with but I've found the vast majority of leased circuit problems to be solely the fault of the telco and easily diagnosed with a multimeter.

That it takes Verizon and AT&T 48-72 hours to restore a public safety circuit (fire, police, makes no difference) says a great deal about the current state of affairs within the telco industry, alas a subject for another thread...

kb4mdz wrote:True. a Fluke meter will do the job, but sometimes if you tell a telco tech (at least one that's been around a few years, and is not just a green button-pusher) that you've used a TIMS, and a particular model, it might enhance your credibility;

Also, a Fluke DMM doesn't have a way to 'bridge' or 'terminate' a line; sometimes that's just what is needed to isolate a problem.

Exactly which is why I want to find a good small, portable tester.

escomm wrote: Telco testers are about as useless as a three dollar bill. They run a test on the circuit... Oh everything is fine... OK where is my 1950Hz status tone? Sorry we don't see anything there. Head down to the head end, there's my status tone at -5dB! Head to the circuit termination where the voter is... no status tone and no signal! Problem resolution? Oh we found a jumper missing... Oh the aerial was bad... puh-leeze

I don't disagree that a TIMS is a good unit to test with but I've found the vast majority of leased circuit problems to be solely the fault of the telco and easily diagnosed with a multimeter.

That it takes Verizon and AT&T 48-72 hours to restore a public safety circuit (fire, police, makes no difference) says a great deal about the current state of affairs within the telco industry, alas a subject for another thread...

TELL ME ABOUT IT!!! This circuit that I am looking to test has been nothing but trouble. The last time I called VZ to complain they said they would replace the whole circuit. Well they did and guess what...bad again. They found a bad drop this time around. I had VZ come out and they realligned everything to -16db (their spec) and it still didn't work. So they came out again. This time I had the tech look at our tone. It's -10db at the head end and -23db at the comparator. I had the tech look at another circuit from the same site, with our 1950hz tone he had -10db. "Too hot" he said. Too hot? How about that circiut works and has never had a problem????? Why don't you crank that -23db up a little and you can write whatever you want on your ticket. UGH!!!

Haven't had a problem yet...time will tell.